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Better wrestling career on mat - DT or Cael? Who has more prestige?

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Just now, Plasmodium said:

The NLWC has all those Olympic medalists and you are dogging them? Tough crowd!

I'm not dogging them at all.  But those guys were already world medalists before they got there.  Gilman definitely appears better.  

But, I don't see how Cael is responsible for US success.

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Snyder can't do any better than he has since joining NLWC.  We are talking about Sadulaev.  The fact is Cael has taken Gilman and Taylor to incredible heights. He also trained Varner to gold.  So from the past 3 olympcs, Cael is responsible for 2 gold medals at the Olympics and a WC/olympic bronze from Gilman. Feel free to discount Snyder's medals, but I'm sure the training environment and financial incentives there have helped keep him in the sport, which is half the battle.  

The bottom line is that Cael will very soon surpass Gable in terms of international coaching record, if he hasn't already. When he does just depends on to what degree you consider the 1984  medal haul legitimate.  

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On 10/4/2021 at 11:44 AM, WrestleNJ said:

Part of what makes Cael so unique is that he retired from competition at his peak. 8 years later he competes on a whim and makes the World Team. Really without much opposition domestically. Makes you wonder how many medals he could have had if he didn't get into coaching right away. We'll be saying the same thing about Gable and his legacy down the road. 

Don't forget that Cael also lost two years competing at the WC due to unforeseen circumstances.  In 2001 WC were schedule for NYC in Sptember and Sept 11th changed that.  The Worlds were moved elsewhere and back by a couple of months. Cael decided he could not go due to interference with the college season - B Eggum went instead and took Silver.  The next year Cael made the team again and the WC were scheduled in Iran.  USAW decided the US team could not go due to security concerns.  The next year Cael won Silver at the WC in NYC.

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19 minutes ago, headshuck said:


That is funny but no. Stop.

Serious question.  Do you think if Steveson took of 2022 and 2023 from freestyle to pursue WWE, and tried to come back in 2024, do you think he could take the spot back from Parris/Gwiz?

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Serious question.  Do you think if Steveson took of 2022 and 2023 from freestyle to pursue WWE, and tried to come back in 2024, do you think he could take the spot back from Parris/Gwiz?

Yes. His trajectory has been off the charts. I don’t think he’ll stop wrestling, but rather add new skills. He said he plans to be the first world champion wrestler, entertainer, fighter.

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1 hour ago, ShakaAloha said:

Serious question.  Do you think if Steveson took of 2022 and 2023 from freestyle to pursue WWE, and tried to come back in 2024, do you think he could take the spot back from Parris/Gwiz?

I'm not sure what Gwiz has left to offer. I like him, and I root for him, but he's probably at his ceiling. 

Jury is still out on Parris.

37 minutes ago, headshuck said:


Yes. His trajectory has been off the charts. I don’t think he’ll stop wrestling, but rather add new skills. He said he plans to be the first world champion wrestler, entertainer, fighter.

I'm not sure if we can expect the trajectory to remain upward if he's not training to compete and win. I assume it will level off at best. That might still be enough to get back in a couple years removed. May the best representative win!

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15 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The bottom line is that Cael will very soon surpass Gable in terms of international coaching record, if he hasn't already. When he does just depends on to what degree you consider the 1984  medal haul legitimate.  

I think you are under estimating Gable here.  Wrestlers he coached have won 22 world level medals and 9 world level titles.  Take away 1984 and it's still 18 and 6.  Cael coached wrestlers have won 5 world level medals and three world level titles. 

If you add the NLWC wrestlers like Gilman, Snyder, Espinal,Gomez, Abdurakhmonov, Maroulis, etc to Sanderson's tally then Gable deserves some of the credit for US medals won in 1977-1979, 1983, 1994, and 1999 when he was the world team coach.

Sanderson

David Taylor gold 2018, 2020; silver 2021

Jake Varner gold 2012, bronze 2011

Gable

Royce Alger silver 1990

Ed Banach gold 1984

Lou Banach gold 1984

Terry Brands gold 1993, 1995; Bronze 2000

Tom Brands gold 1993, 1996

Chris Campbell gold 1981, silver 1990, bronze 1992

Barry Davis Silver 1984, 1986, 1987

Randy Lewis gold 1984

Lincoln Mcilravy Silver 1999; bronze 1998, 2000

Brad Penrith silver 1991

Joe Williams Bronze 2001, 2005

Bill Zadick gold 2006

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50 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

I think you are under estimating Gable here.  Wrestlers he coached have won 22 world level medals and 9 world level titles.  Take away 1984 and it's still 18 and 6.  Cael coached wrestlers have won 5 world level medals and three world level titles. 

If you add the NLWC wrestlers like Gilman, Snyder, Espinal,Gomez, Abdurakhmonov, Maroulis, etc to Sanderson's tally then Gable deserves some of the credit for US medals won in 1977-1979, 1983, 1994, and 1999 when he was the world team coach.

Sanderson

David Taylor gold 2018, 2020; silver 2021

Jake Varner gold 2012, bronze 2011

Gable

Royce Alger silver 1990

Ed Banach gold 1984

Lou Banach gold 1984

Terry Brands gold 1993, 1995; Bronze 2000

Tom Brands gold 1993, 1996

Chris Campbell gold 1981, silver 1990, bronze 1992

Barry Davis Silver 1984, 1986, 1987

Randy Lewis gold 1984

Lincoln Mcilravy Silver 1999; bronze 1998, 2000

Brad Penrith silver 1991

Joe Williams Bronze 2001, 2005

Bill Zadick gold 2006

Being the world team coach is very different than directly coaching guys at HWC or NLWC. I definitely give Cael credit for Gilman, although Snyder is more questionable. As I said, the Gable vs Cael question comes down to how you view 1984.  Personally, I don't think they are legitimate (to no fault of the athletes-just politics ruined 8 years of the olympics). So right now it's 6 world level gold for Gable vs 4 for Cael.  With 1 vs 2 Olympic golds.

Wasn't Zalesky the coach for Zadick? If so  it's 5 vs 4 world level gold with there being fewer weightclasses now.  

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6 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Wasn't Zalesky the coach for Zadick? If so  it's 5 vs 4 world level gold with there being fewer weightclasses now.  

Bill wrestled for gable in the mid 90s. He won NCAAs his senior year in 1996.  Gable was retired by the time Bill won worlds in 2006 so it's not clear how much credit Gable deserves.  Still I think you are thinking of Bill's brother Mike who wrestled for Zalesky.  He won a world silver in 2006 which I omitted from the list because he didn't wrestle for Gable.

Cael's doing great but the numbers favor Gable. Even taking away 1984, 9 of Gable's wrestlers won world level medals.  Cael hasn't had 9 wrestlers make world teams yet (Paulson, Paulson, Varner, Ruth, Molinaro, Zain, Taylor).  Gable has coached upwards of 20 wrestlers to world team spots.

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8 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Worth noting that Carl is now 42.  Gable retired at 49.

I think in 7 years, Cael will have clearly passed him. As of now, I think it’s basically 50/50 between them depending on how you value worlds vs Olympics and 10 weight class era vs present. I don’t fault anyone who thinks Gable has the better record, but personally I give a slight edge to Cael. 
 

Even so, you’re right that Cael will coach longer than age 49 and eventually it won’t be debatable, so debating it now is a bit pointless. It’s kind of crazy/scary for those of us who would like to see more parity to think Cael could be coaching another three decades.

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On 10/6/2021 at 8:27 AM, Billyhoyle said:

Snyder can't do any better than he has since joining NLWC.  We are talking about Sadulaev.  The fact is Cael has taken Gilman and Taylor to incredible heights. He also trained Varner to gold.  So from the past 3 olympcs, Cael is responsible for 2 gold medals at the Olympics and a WC/olympic bronze from Gilman. Feel free to discount Snyder's medals, but I'm sure the training environment and financial incentives there have helped keep him in the sport, which is half the battle.  

The bottom line is that Cael will very soon surpass Gable in terms of international coaching record, if he hasn't already. When he does just depends on to what degree you consider the 1984  medal haul legitimate.  

Snyder beat Sadulaev while at TOSU.  He doesn’t look any closer to doing it again now.

And I think Cael is a great coach.

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Cael has more prestige but that’s because he did the impossible. But he’s not better. It’s a wash.

If Cael had not retired he would been a multi time medalist with one more gold at best. I seriously doubt he would have been able to consistently win gold with Romero, Sazhidov and Yazdani in the mix year after year. He split with Sazhidov, beat Romero 3-2 and never wrestled Yazdani (so far as I know). He likely would have ended up looking worse than Taylor. Taylor beat Yazdani three times before he succumbed. 

Also Sanderson never faced anyone near as good as Dake in college. The closest was Cormier who was no Kyle Dake and he’s one of the guys who Sanderson didn’t bonus every time. It’s perfectly conceivable that in another era he might not have won every match. I can see a Kyle Snyder, J’Den Cox giving him a run for his money in college. 
 

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1 hour ago, BigTimeFan said:

Cael has more prestige but that’s because he did the impossible. But he’s not better. It’s a wash.

If Cael had not retired he would been a multi time medalist with one more gold at best. I seriously doubt he would have been able to consistently win gold with Romero, Sazhidov and Yazdani in the mix year after year. He split with Sazhidov, beat Romero 3-2 and never wrestled Yazdani (so far as I know). He likely would have ended up looking worse than Taylor. Taylor beat Yazdani three times before he succumbed. 

Also Sanderson never faced anyone near as good as Dake in college. The closest was Cormier who was no Kyle Dake and he’s one of the guys who Sanderson didn’t bonus every time. It’s perfectly conceivable that in another era he might not have won every match. I can see a Kyle Snyder, J’Den Cox giving him a run for his money in college. 
 

Cael never would have wrestled Yazdani. He also would not have taken so many domestic freestyle losses the way DT has. 

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43 minutes ago, BigTimeFan said:

What ? I’m not talking about DT’s Yazdani. I’m talking about THIS guy. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Yazdani

Oh really? You said, "Taylor beat Yazdani three times before he succumbed." But now you are talking about a different Yazdani? Anyway, he likely would not have wrestled Reza Yazdani either as that guy was a 96K and Cael wrestled at 84K and was active years before Reza. Try to do better.

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