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Eagle26

Is JB now the American GOAT?

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What are everyone thoughts on this? I think it’s debatable, but I would still give the nod to John smith at this point. I think the two Olympic golds and 6 in a row are probably more impressive. However, legit arguments for JB are 6 gold plus 3 bronze is better than just 6 gold. He was post Soviet Union and only 6-7 weights for many of them. And he was so close in many of his losses. So who do you have at this point?

 

 

If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

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Smith had six gold in six consecutive World/Olympics (with 2 of them being Olympic gold).  There is something to be said for going six for six (especially when compared to six gold in 10 tries).  Secondly, JB can't pass Smith unless and until he gets the second Olympic gold.  Olympic gold is significantly greater/more valuable than World gold.

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Add in Soviet breakup and the fewer weights ... I'm comfortable with believing JB having to go through much harder competition ... that offsets that Olympic Gold margin vs World gold.  Plus, JB has earned 9 medals to 6 for Smith.  

I get your point Shaka, simply a difference of opinion.

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7 minutes ago, nom said:

Add in Soviet breakup and the fewer weights ... I'm comfortable with believing JB having to go through much harder competition ... that offsets that Olympic Gold margin vs World gold.  Plus, JB has earned 9 medals to 6 for Smith.  

I get your point Shaka, simply a difference of opinion.

JB is a legend and I'm not trying to take anything away from him.  But this is a American GOAT discussion.

JB coming home empty-handed from the Rio Olympics should take him down a notch from Smith no matter what he does going forward.  He didn't just lost to Russia in that Olympics; he had a complete meltdown and also lost to Bekzod.  Based on that alone, he can never pass Smith imo.  Like you said, we have a difference of opinion.

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I'll take a different tact....Smith is better because he has better par terre, shots from tie up, and changed the sport. Also think he would have been more dominant in an era of 2 point TDs....

But if burroughs picks up another gold, plus all the other medals, he's just plain outproduced smith and would be the goat.

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JB is a legend and I'm not trying to take anything away from him.  But this is a American GOAT discussion.
JB coming home empty-handed from the Rio Olympics should take him down a notch from Smith no matter what he does going forward.  He didn't just lost to Russia in that Olympics; he had a complete meltdown and also lost to Bekzod.  Based on that alone, he can never pass Smith imo.  Like you said, we have a difference of opinion.

So even if JB wins two more world gold and then loses in 2024, you would still put him behind Smith? I agree the 2 Olympic golds hold more weight, but I don’t know if it would trump 8 world/Olympic titles? I think we look at Rio a little differently too. I look at it like Burroughs was just a whisker away from beating Geduev (and was hampered by all the blood). If he wins that, he is likely Olympic champ and there’s no debate. The mental breakdown after that loss is understandable and his loss to Bekzod is in no way an indicator of his abilities. But I guess I have to trust you on that since you know more than me :-D


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

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I'll take a different tact....Smith is better because he has better par terre, shots from tie up, and changed the sport. Also think he would have been more dominant in an era of 2 point TDs....
But if burroughs picks up another gold, plus all the other medals, he's just plain outproduced smith and would be the goat.

Good points. I didn’t think about the 2 point takedown but that makes sense. Looking at it the other way, how much would a 1 point takedown hurt JB? Probably a lot. The step out may be something that would’ve hurt Smith though. He wasn’t exactly known for his horsepower. Regardless they both found ways to excel in their rule set and it’s a good debate!


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

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1 hour ago, ShakaAloha said:

JB is a legend and I'm not trying to take anything away from him.  But this is a American GOAT discussion.

JB coming home empty-handed from the Rio Olympics should take him down a notch from Smith no matter what he does going forward.  He didn't just lost to Russia in that Olympics; he had a complete meltdown and also lost to Bekzod.  Based on that alone, he can never pass Smith imo.  Like you said, we have a difference of opinion.

In 89 Smith beat Canada’s Bohay in the finals who never placed again at the world level. The East German placed 3rd. The competition wasn’t remotely the same as any of JB’s years.  

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:


Good points. I didn’t think about the 2 point takedown but that makes sense. Looking at it the other way, how much would a 1 point takedown hurt JB? Probably a lot. The step out may be something that would’ve hurt Smith though. He wasn’t exactly known for his horsepower. Regardless they both found ways to excel in their rule set and it’s a good debate!


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

To be fair I think burroughs got two titles with 1 point Tds, but the point stands.

With the pushout thing, Smith was way harder to underhook than JB, or at least way more dangerous too sense he had duck unders on both sides from there. Also, as far as being grounded goes, Smith was one of the few who could drop his butt straight down to mat and put it right between his heels....thats a hard guy to push out.

 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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2 olympic golds vs 1 gold and a dnp. Smith also was named Master of Technique one year by FILA. Which essentially sounds like a best p4p award. Recency bias is a real thing.

Edited by BTC

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2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:


So even if JB wins two more world gold and then loses in 2024, you would still put him behind Smith? I agree the 2 Olympic golds hold more weight, but I don’t know if it would trump 8 world/Olympic titles? I think we look at Rio a little differently too. I look at it like Burroughs was just a whisker away from beating Geduev (and was hampered by all the blood). If he wins that, he is likely Olympic champ and there’s no debate. The mental breakdown after that loss is understandable and his loss to Bekzod is in no way an indicator of his abilities. But I guess I have to trust you on that since you know more than me :-D


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

I don't know what happened to my response; I guess one of the mods didn't like it.  

The bottom line is JB didn't beat Geduev in Rio and he has never beaten Sidakov.  Smith doesn't have blemishes like that on his record.  

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2 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

because name dropping marable crushes burroughs in your opinion, and you have no frame of reference for the comparison

Which Americans did John lose to after he started his senior run?

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14 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

because name dropping marable crushes burroughs in your opinion, and you have no frame of reference for the comparison

Fisher was better than Marable

I think JB is great but he's not the GOAT.  Smith and JB had the same career trajectory for their first five years, then Smith won the Olympics and JB choked and DNP.  That's what makes the difference between the two.  If JB won gold in Rio, he takes the GOAT title from Smith.  It doesn't matter how many more non-Olympic weight World championship golds JB wins; he'll never pass Smith in my book until he gets that second Olympic gold.

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