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Eagle26

Is JB now the American GOAT?

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Remember, there were 10 weights when Smith won his 2 Olympic gold's and one of his golds he lost a match. With today's rules he would have been wrestling for bronze (maybe not even that as the guy he lost to lost).  JBs Olympic gold was with 7 weights. Factor in the USSR v Russia argument, as well. Smith had a 6 year senior career (including his first Goodwill Games). JB has a 10 year senior career and is still going. 

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with all resperct JB didnt met really great wrestler in his career. After Saitiev 74 was poor in Russia till  Sidakov. 
All those guys Tsargush Geduev etc were good but not great wrestlers.

JS  2 olimpic golds weights much more than 1. 
Kyle Snyder met much harder competition till this day 

Edited by Gio

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56 minutes ago, Gio said:

with all resperct JB didnt met really great wrestler in his career. After Saitiev 74 was poor in Russia till  Sidakov. 
All those guys Tsargush Geduev etc were good but not great wrestlers.

JS  2 olimpic golds weights much more than 1. 
Kyle Snyder met much harder competition till this day 

Even though he doesn't have the hardware I think tsargush was JBs toughest opponent. If it wasn't for JB he most likely would've won in '11 and '12. Of course people will say sidakov cause of the oly gold and his record against Jordan. 

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1 hour ago, Gio said:

with all resperct JB didnt met really great wrestler in his career. After Saitiev 74 was poor in Russia till  Sidakov. 
All those guys Tsargush Geduev etc were good but not great wrestlers.

JS  2 olimpic golds weights much more than 1. 
Kyle Snyder met much harder competition till this day 

Hmm, Tsargush was not a great wrestler? He probably would have won 6 straight titles had JB not been there.

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I would argue that this week didn't change anything for JB in an all time ranking. He either was the best before this or he wasn't and either is still true. The nature of this tournament including the timing and the composition to me means that Burroughs essentially held serve. There are persuasive arguments on both sides, but I don't think this week should have changed anyone's mind.

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2 hours ago, BTC said:

Even though he doesn't have the hardware I think tsargush was JBs toughest opponent. If it wasn't for JB he most likely would've won in '11 and '12. Of course people will say sidakov cause of the oly gold and his record against Jordan. 

I remember Tsargush , he was mediocre wrestler who cant compete Saitiev and Murtuzaliev when they were rivals for each other. He was 3 d in his weight. JB lost all his matches to Sidakov who didnt even recognized himself as all time best calibre, 
Kyle Snyder himself have 1 victory over guy who have big chances to all time great , he met Gatsalov and other big guns.
and if you bring here competition lvl argument - Snyder is higher than Burroughs. 
dont want to be cocky here but in Russia most people who watches wrestling recognized JB as very limited who was lucky enough to not meet really great wrestler during his career- 74 was poor for talients then
At other hand you have JS who doimnated his era and have 2 olimpic golds he was very technical guy with his own unorthodox style - just as DT which is awesome too and who also met better competition than JB and beat Yazdani 3 times in a row. 
I mean it is not my buisness to call who is best but make arguments fair for all wrestlers if you selecting one of them

Edited by Gio

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4 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Remember, there were 10 weights when Smith won his 2 Olympic gold's and one of his golds he lost a match. With today's rules he would have been wrestling for bronze (maybe not even that as the guy he lost to lost).  JBs Olympic gold was with 7 weights. Factor in the USSR v Russia argument, as well. Smith had a 6 year senior career (including his first Goodwill Games). JB has a 10 year senior career and is still going. 

But Smith knew he could lose a match and still make the finals.  Also, JB’s bronzes are in the double bronze era.  Small points, but points none the less.

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1 hour ago, Gio said:

I remember Tsargush , he was mediocre wrestler who cant compete Saitiev and Murtuzaliev when they were rivals for each other. He was 3 d in his weight. JB lost all his matches to Sidakov who didnt even recognized himself as all time best calibre, 
Kyle Snyder himself have 1 victory over guy who have big chances to all time great , he met Gatsalov and other big guns.
and if you bring here competition lvl argument - Snyder is higher than Burroughs. 
dont want to be cocky here but in Russia most people who watches wrestling recognized JB as very limited who was lucky enough to not meet really great wrestler during his career- 74 was poor for talients then
At other hand you have JS who doimnated his era and have 2 olimpic golds he was very technical guy with his own unorthodox style - just as DT which is awesome too and who also met better competition than JB and beat Yazdani 3 times in a row. 
I mean it is not my buisness to call who is best but make arguments fair for all wrestlers if you selecting one of them

Ummm Tsargush was a two time world CHAMPION before Burroughs beat him in 2011.  WTH are you talking about?

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Ummm Tsargush was a two time world CHAMPION before Burroughs beat him in 2011.  WTH are you talking about?
I'm not going to argue Tsargush in the grand scheme of things because obviously I know who he followed and I'm not familiar with his career prior to when he started winning titles

But yeah ...... when JB came on the scene ... There was nobody better than Tsargush, he was amazing... And he stayed great for awhile, quit a little early but it was injury related right?
That dude doesn't get enough love

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3 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Ummm Tsargush was a two time world CHAMPION before Burroughs beat him in 2011.  WTH are you talking about?

I meant that Tsargush is not Gastsalov, not Yazdani nor Sadulaev. No matter his international carrer most his time in Russia he wasnt #1 at his weight till Saitiev and co retired. And rest of international wrestlers at 74 were not good enough to call that JB had better competiton than KS or DT had. So bringing this argument for JB bit unfair if you count that KS without facing possible GOAT may have 2 Olimpics and so many world titles 

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I grew up able to see both Smith and JB...results are hard to compare head to head given different decades, but based on eye test and pure wrestling athleticism/skill/strength/etc. I'd have it:

1A - JB

1B - Smith

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factor in the other thread... 9 of 10 times had to wrestle the russian, iranian or both...

 

not to mention Smith lost during the olympics... but it was a different system/age

JB has longevity over smith, but not over Bruce.

Edited by GockeS

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2 hours ago, Gio said:

I meant that Tsargush is not Gastsalov, not Yazdani nor Sadulaev. No matter his international carrer most his time in Russia he wasnt #1 at his weight till Saitiev and co retired. And rest of international wrestlers at 74 were not good enough to call that JB had better competiton than KS or DT had. So bringing this argument for JB bit unfair if you count that KS without facing possible GOAT may have 2 Olimpics and so many world titles 

Tsargush was 20 when he finished behind Saitiev and Murtzaliev in Russia 2008. Then he won worlds the next two years before losing to JB in 2011.  Although he was 20 at the time, you hold it against him that he wasn't Russia's number one in 2008?  Certainly not most of his time.

Only in Russia is a 3x world champion and Olympic medalist 'mediocre'!!

Edited by Plasmodium

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2 hours ago, Gio said:

I meant that Tsargush is not Gastsalov, not Yazdani nor Sadulaev. No matter his international carrer most his time in Russia he wasnt #1 at his weight till Saitiev and co retired. And rest of international wrestlers at 74 were not good enough to call that JB had better competiton than KS or DT had. So bringing this argument for JB bit unfair if you count that KS without facing possible GOAT may have 2 Olimpics and so many world titles 

Well Tsargush was a 3 time world champion.  Yazdani just became a 4 time champ.  Tsargush was a 2 time Yarygin winner, won Russian nationals 5 time, 3 time world and European champ.  No one here is arguing Burrgoughs vs DT or Dake because they aren't yet even in the conversation.  The argument is between Burroughs and John Smith.  

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I’m not too familiar with Smith’s career. Who did Smith beat that was better than Tsargush? Also, I thought I heard he took losses outside of the world and Olympic championships too. Anyone know if that’s true and if so, who the losses were too?


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

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7 hours ago, Gio said:

I remember Tsargush , he was mediocre wrestler who cant compete Saitiev and Murtuzaliev when they were rivals for each other. He was 3 d in his weight. JB lost all his matches to Sidakov who didnt even recognized himself as all time best calibre, 
Kyle Snyder himself have 1 victory over guy who have big chances to all time great , he met Gatsalov and other big guns.
and if you bring here competition lvl argument - Snyder is higher than Burroughs. 
dont want to be cocky here but in Russia most people who watches wrestling recognized JB as very limited who was lucky enough to not meet really great wrestler during his career- 74 was poor for talients then
At other hand you have JS who doimnated his era and have 2 olimpic golds he was very technical guy with his own unorthodox style - just as DT which is awesome too and who also met better competition than JB and beat Yazdani 3 times in a row. 
I mean it is not my buisness to call who is best but make arguments fair for all wrestlers if you selecting one of them

I agree with a lot of this.  Thank you for bringing a Russian perspective to the board.  It is always informative to hear how other countries view our guys.

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8 hours ago, Gio said:

I remember Tsargush , he was mediocre wrestler who cant compete Saitiev and Murtuzaliev when they were rivals for each other. He was 3 d in his weight. JB lost all his matches to Sidakov who didnt even recognized himself as all time best calibre, 

This was in 2007 and it shows a very young tsargush taking the reigning and future Olympic champ into deep waters. Losing a very close match to one of the goats is clearly the sign of a mediocre wrestler. 

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18 minutes ago, BTC said:

This was in 2007 and it shows a very young tsargush taking the reigning and future Olympic champ into deep waters. Losing a very close match to one of the goats is clearly the sign of a mediocre wrestler. 

Saytiev had even loss against Murtuzaliev before 2008 Olimpic games - in important match for Olimpics spot - but he revenged that match to make spot. 
That won didnt make Murtuzaliev great or goat - it happens it is wrestling 
Same guy Myrtuzaliev beat Tsargush at 2008 twice at Yarigin and Nationals
After those guys retiring /leaving tsargush remained as best of rest wrestlers at 74 - and that fact that he was 3 time world champ said us that at international lvl competition was not that strong. 

Edited by Gio

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4 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

The argument is between Burroughs and John Smith.  

and I asking why not Kyle Snyder here? His competiton level is much higher 

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I mean Guys 74 was poor in the world and even KD had nice chances to hardware back then 
After Murtuzaliev and Saitiev new genereatons were not that good  till sidakov 
And here you can some familiar guy 
His 3d world title Tsargus won over injured JB so you cant count it as clear win 

 

Edited by Gio

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Ok, John Smith won 6 in a row.  Nobody else in the USA has done that.  Period.  Bruce had a longer career and won lots.  Bruce B has 2 olympic Gold, 3 WC gold, Olympic Silver and Bronze, and 3 WC Silver and 3 WC Bronze.  Yet no one counts him as GOAT because Smith did 6 in a row.  JB is a legend.  But his loss at the Olympics blew his chance to equal Smith IMHO.

mspart

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