Jump to content
Eagle26

Is JB now the American GOAT?

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, mspart said:

Ok, John Smith won 6 in a row.  Nobody else in the USA has done that.  Period.  Bruce had a longer career and won lots.  Bruce B has 2 olympic Gold, 3 WC gold, Olympic Silver and Bronze, and 3 WC Silver and 3 WC Bronze.  Yet no one counts him as GOAT because Smith did 6 in a row.  JB is a legend.  But his loss at the Olympics blew his chance to equal Smith IMHO.

mspart

So the competition you encountered means nothing?  The fact that there were 10 weights and now 6-7 means nothing?  They also don’t count it for Bruce because he was a Hwt. Way less deep than say…74kg. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Remember, there were 10 weights when Smith won his 2 Olympic gold's and one of his golds he lost a match. With today's rules he would have been wrestling for bronze (maybe not even that as the guy he lost to lost).  JBs Olympic gold was with 7 weights. Factor in the USSR v Russia argument, as well. Smith had a 6 year senior career (including his first Goodwill Games). JB has a 10 year senior career and is still going. 

No one is discussing the difference in financial opportunities between when Smit and JB competed.  Back in 1992 it was difficult to make a living and still compete - not as bad as 10 years before that but still difficult.  JB is essentially a professional athlete now.  He has been making a good amount since he started and there is a financial incentive to keep going if you are on a level that JB is.  If that had existed in Smith's day would he have gone on?  Who knows?  Still it is good that those opportunities exist for todays athletes.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Gio said:

with all resperct JB didnt met really great wrestler in his career. After Saitiev 74 was poor in Russia till  Sidakov. 
All those guys Tsargush Geduev etc were good but not great wrestlers.

JS  2 olimpic golds weights much more than 1. 
Kyle Snyder met much harder competition till this day 

Tsargush was good but not great? The guy has 3 World Gold medals to his credit and would have had many more if not for JB. I don't think you know the meaning of great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

 If that had existed in Smith's day would he have gone on?  Who knows?  Still it is good that those opportunities exist for todays athletes.  

Since we are moving to would/coulda considerations, what does Smith do to Brands in 96?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Gio said:

I remember Tsargush , he was mediocre wrestler who cant compete Saitiev and Murtuzaliev when they were rivals for each other. He was 3 d in his weight. JB lost all his matches to Sidakov who didnt even recognized himself as all time best calibre, 
Kyle Snyder himself have 1 victory over guy who have big chances to all time great , he met Gatsalov and other big guns.
and if you bring here competition lvl argument - Snyder is higher than Burroughs. 
dont want to be cocky here but in Russia most people who watches wrestling recognized JB as very limited who was lucky enough to not meet really great wrestler during his career- 74 was poor for talients then
At other hand you have JS who doimnated his era and have 2 olimpic golds he was very technical guy with his own unorthodox style - just as DT which is awesome too and who also met better competition than JB and beat Yazdani 3 times in a row. 
I mean it is not my buisness to call who is best but make arguments fair for all wrestlers if you selecting one of them

Tsargush is a three-time world champ and Olympic bronze medalist.  It's absurd to call him mediocre.

Also, complaining that JB is "very limited" is ridiculous.  His style is to make sure he uses his physical advantages -- really long arms, quickness, strength, explosiveness.  It would be silly for him to model his style after people who do not have his physical gifts.

At any rate, JB has six world-level gold medals now.  The only American we can compare him to is Smith.

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Katie said:

Tsargush is a three-time world champ and Olympic bronze medalist.  It's absurd to call him mediocre.

Also, complaining that JB is "very limited" is ridiculous.  His style is to make sure he uses his physical advantages -- really long arms, quickness, strength, explosiveness.  It would be silly for him to model his style after people who do not have his physical gifts.

At any rate, JB has six world-level gold medals now.  The only American we can compare him to is Smith.

I think @Gio said that because there are different standards for greatness in Russia.  His point is that in Russia, Burroughs and Tsargush would not be considered "great."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

I think @Gio said that because there are different standards for greatness in Russia.  His point is that in Russia, Burroughs and Tsargush would not be considered "great."

Gio thinks six-time world-level champ Gatsalov is a “big gun.”

So I assume he would concede that Burroughs is a “big gun” as well. 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, de4856 said:

Is Adeline Gray the all time Women’s GOAT ? 

Yes. Hands down!

The next best is probably Tricia Saunders with 4 Golds and a Silver between 1992-99. It's hard to compare anyone recent with her, though, given the expansion of the sport and all. What she did at a time when there were very few opportunities for women sets her apart. 

Helen was the first Olympic Gold and has three World Golds (so far). Might have hung with Adeline if not for the injuries, but that's wrestling...

It'll be tough for anyone to catch Adeline any time soon too, but I imagine Blades and Welker have a shot given their higher weight classes and the dearth of elite Japanese women compared to the lighter weights. 6 World Golds, 2 Bronze, 1 Olympic Silver. I hope she adds a couple more and gets that Olympic Gold too!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, denger said:

Yes. Hands down!

The next best is probably Tricia Saunders with 4 Golds and a Silver between 1992-99. It's hard to compare anyone recent with her, though, given the expansion of the sport and all. What she did at a time when there were very few opportunities for women sets her apart. 

Helen was the first Olympic Gold and has three World Golds (so far). Might have hung with Adeline if not for the injuries, but that's wrestling...

It'll be tough for anyone to catch Adeline any time soon too, but I imagine Blades and Welker have a shot given their higher weight classes and the dearth of elite Japanese women compared to the lighter weights. 6 World Golds, 2 Bronze, 1 Olympic Silver. I hope she adds a couple more and gets that Olympic Gold too!

.

Hold on does Grey have an olympic gold?

I have it on.....authority that the only thing that matters at all ever is the olympics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I have it on.....authority that the only thing that matters at all ever is the olympics.

No one said that.  But how can one be the GOAT without Olympic gold?  

The American Women's GOAT is Helen Maroulis. 

Olympic gold/bronze, three World gold, and one World silver, and one World bronze is a better resume than Gray who has one Olympic silver, six World gold, two World bronze, and one DNP at the Olympics.  Gray only has 2 more Olympic/World medals total, which doesn't make up for Helen's Olympic gold and the fact that Gray DNP in Rio.  More medals doesn't necessarily mean better. 

Helen also has better wins than Adeline.  She beat Yoshida in an Olympic final, who is the second best women's wrestler of all time.  Adeline doesn't have a win that comes anywhere near that.

Finally, if you go off the eye test, Helen is significantly more skilled and technical.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Gio said:

Saytiev had even loss against Murtuzaliev before 2008 Olimpic games - in important match for Olimpics spot - but he revenged that match to make spot. 
That won didnt make Murtuzaliev great or goat - it happens it is wrestling 
Same guy Myrtuzaliev beat Tsargush at 2008 twice at Yarigin and Nationals
After those guys retiring /leaving tsargush remained as best of rest wrestlers at 74 - and that fact that he was 3 time world champ said us that at international lvl competition was not that strong. 

In the video I posted, tsargush was 20 years old and he still gave the reigning champ a tough match. Surely you can't believe that at that age he was at his peak form and ability? I believe that when the jb/tsargush rivalry was at its peak. They were so clearly better than the rest of the field that they made it look mediocre. They were the next two great 74kg guys after saitiev retired. 

Edited by BTC
I can't spell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

No one said that.  But how can one be the GOAT without Olympic gold?  

The American Women's GOAT is Helen Maroulis. 

Olympic gold/bronze, three World gold, and one World silver, and one World bronze is a better resume than Gray who has one Olympic silver, six World gold, two World bronze, and one DNP at the Olympics.  Gray only has 2 more Olympic/World medals total, which doesn't make up for Helen's Olympic gold and the fact that Gray DNP in Rio.  More medals doesn't necessarily mean better. 

Helen also has better wins than Adeline.  She beat Yoshida in an Olympic final, who is the second best women's wrestler of all time.  Adeline doesn't have a win that comes anywhere near that.

Finally, if you go off the eye test, Helen is significantly more skilled and technical.  

You make some good points. I don't want to argue against Helen because she's my fav, and I attribute her dominance 2015-17 as a top reason that I came around to being a fan of women's wrestling. I agree on the eye test, but the same can be said about disparities between men's weight classes - different bodies moving differently. 

For the sake of argument, Helen also had a DNP in 2018 - a tournament we all know she had no business competing in. Gray also took a year off to recuperate from injuries in 2017. It's not as scary as Helen's health, but health is always part of an athletes career.

In Gray's favor are those 6 Golds (all WC) to Helen's 3 (2 WC, 1 Oly) ...hopefully 4 tomorrow; and hopefully you counting that before it happens is a typo ; )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
59 minutes ago, denger said:

You make some good points. I don't want to argue against Helen because she's my fav, and I attribute her dominance 2015-17 as a top reason that I came around to being a fan of women's wrestling. I agree on the eye test, but the same can be said about disparities between men's weight classes - different bodies moving differently. 

For the sake of argument, Helen also had a DNP in 2018 - a tournament we all know she had no business competing in. Gray also took a year off to recuperate from injuries in 2017. It's not as scary as Helen's health, but health is always part of an athletes career.

In Gray's favor are those 6 Golds (all WC) to Helen's 3 (2 WC, 1 Oly) ...hopefully 4 tomorrow; and hopefully you counting that before it happens is a typo ; )

Freudian slip on the three World gold for Helen lol.  She is still the American GOAT regardless of what happens tomorrow.  

Gray has no Olympic gold, DNP in Rio Olympics, was dominated head-to-head in her Flo match with Mensah (who is a weight lower), and has no wins even close to the caliber of Helen's.  This is not the resume of a GOAT.  It is lazy to think Gray is the GOAT just because she has six World gold.  Her wins have come in the heaviest women's division, which is nowhere near the level of skill/competition of 53/57kg.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Freudian slip on the three World gold for Helen lol.  She is still the American GOAT regardless of what happens tomorrow.  

Gray has no Olympic gold, DNP in Rio Olympics, was dominated head-to-head in her Flo match with Mensah (who is a weight lower), and has no wins even close to the caliber of Helen's.  This is not the resume of a GOAT.  It is lazy to think Gray is the GOAT just because she has six World gold.  Her wins have come in the heaviest women's division, which is nowhere near the level of skill/competition of 53/57kg.  

I already made my point about why the DNP is an equal mark. If you want to pretend that attempt wasn't made... well, that's a caution and 1 for me.

Do exhibition matches count? They don't show up on international records, but I appreciate the anecdote.

The only other point I want to make in favor of Adeline is that she's been the gold standard - the one all competitors scout and train to beat. Helen almost became that in 2017, and I hope she becomes it now. However, the argument that Gray's 6 world championships are weaker while she WAS the gold standard doesn't get beat because Maroulis knocked off a world standard wrestler before being unfortunately disrupted. 

I want Maroulis to be the GOAT. She's my favorite! I just don't think that her 'resume' is better when she has multiple fewer golds than Gray. This, and the OP about JB, will have better informed arguments in 2024. For now, based on accomplishments, Gray is the most obvious answer. Call it lazy if you don't have a better argument. I can take it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Katie said:

So I assume he would concede that Burroughs is a “big gun” as well. 

Little bit different - Gatsalov is 2 time olimpic gold medalist -just tier below 3 timers. He is one of the greats and Snyder faced him but Tsargush is nowere near his level. I dont call JB worse or bad - i call his technique limited - and that means nothing if it his way to compete. I just prefer guys like John Smith or David Taylor who shows beaty of US wrestling shool based on folkstyle. 
without doubt JB is a big gun as you said. I talked that JB is limited in his technique (personal preferences) and didnt met top lvl opposition back then - only Tsargush so i dont now who JS met but if you bring here compettition lvl argument - why Snyderin not greater than him? Who met competition stronger than Kyle SNyder- if Sadulaev remained at previous weight  he would be 2 time olimpian and etc

Edited by Gio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BTC said:

They were the next two great 74kg guys after saitiev retired. 

Dude JB and Tsargush were nowere near Saitiev, Tsargush 3d world happened because JB injury. You guys wants to make Tsargush one great rival but he wasnt, He wasnt great wrestler. He was not at JB lvl and at linked video - even Dake with 1 injured hand won over him - rewatch it - Dake literally wrestled using 1 hand. JB is great wrestler - yes his style bit primitive (but that doesnt matter)  but JB had not met really great wrestlers at international lvl till Sidakov. Kyle Snyder faced much harder  opponents during his career. So if you uses competition lvl to make JB goat US wrestler use it to all. I personally count Snyder better wrestler who unlucky to compete at Sadulaev era

Edited by Gio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, jackwebster said:

Since we are moving to would/coulda considerations, what does Smith do to Brands in 96?

maybe lose, being that long in the tooth. would have been a fun rivalry on the level of JB v KD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, lu1979 said:

Tsargush was good but not great? The guy has 3 World Gold medals to his credit and would have had many more if not for JB. I don't think you know the meaning of great.

This guy is a joke. JB edges Tsargush who is not great. But Sidikov edges Burroughs on step outs and is considered great.... He's gotten into the potato juice again /eyeroll. 
Just realized he has 25 posts and calls JB style "primitive" clearly a troll. Plz stop feeding. 

Edited by Grecojones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Gio said:

Dude JB and Tsargush were nowere near Saitiev, Tsargush 3d world happened because JB injury. You guys wants to make Tsargush one great rival but he wasnt, He wasnt great wrestler. He was not at JB lvl and at linked video - even Dake with 1 injured hand won over him - rewatch it - Dake literally wrestled using 1 hand. JB is great wrestler - yes his style bit primitive (but that doesnt matter)  but JB had not met really great wrestlers at international lvl till Sidakov. Kyle Snyder faced much harder  opponents during his career. So if you uses competition lvl to make JB goat US wrestler use it to all. I personally count Snyder better wrestler who unlucky to compete at Sadulaev era

If Slay can beat Saitiev with blast doubles, imagine what JB would do to him!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...