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Eagle26

Is JB now the American GOAT?

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29 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Smith knew the rules well.  They made the match he lost inconsequential.  Like a sprinter getting third in a heat but advancing all the same.

He was made aware of the situation before the match.  I believe he was advancing as long as he didn't get pinned?

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2 hours ago, BigTimeFan said:

That’s not enough to bump him. BSatiev came home empty handed from the 2000 Olympics. What say you?

Satiev has three Olympic golds and six World golds.  That puts him in the running to be the GOAT for all of freestyle wrestling, not just in Russia.  His three Olympic freestyle golds are matched by only one other man, Medved, who is the other person in the running for GOAT for all of freestyle wrestling. The fact that Satiev came home empty-handed in a "fluke" victory by his opponent in 2000 doesn't take away from his overall greatness...not when he has 3 other Olympic gold medals.  The only time it should count against Satiev is if you are arguing about who is better between him and Medved. 

JB has a single Olympic gold medal, and his legacy is gold (2012), DNP (2016), and did not make team (2020).  These are not even close to the same situation.

4 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I think the point is most people consider Kemp better than Cejudo even though he has no Olympic gold. Smith has one more Olympic gold than JB but if it’s possible for Kemp to be better than Cejudo, it’s possible for JB to be better than Smith. I agree with you that Smith should still be considered GOAT right now. However, I f JB wins worlds next year then I think he earns it, but still debatable. If he wins the next two years I think it’s a done deal before 2024 Olympics


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

This is also a completely different situation from Smith-Burroughs.  Kemp would have won gold in Moscow had the USA not boycotted.  Kemp had his chance taken away from him by something out of control.  Cejudo is below Kemp because he ONLY has the Olympic gold.  Henry made one other World team  in 2007 and lost his first match.  He also tried to make the Olympic team again in 2012 and lost to Nick Simmons.    This shows Henry's Olympic gold was an aberration.  

It is not possible for Burroughs to ever pass Smith in my mind when he went 1-2 in Rio and didn't make the team for Tokyo.  The fact that he didn't make the team for the Tokyo Olympics also needs to be taken into account when comparing JB to Smith.  JB is a legend and one of our best, but not the American GOAT.  

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6 hours ago, HawkY said:

84 yes. 92 was full strength. A lopsided draw that produces a weak finalist doesn't change that. Bruce beat his rival Gobe at 92 who was a great wrestler. 

I actually knew that. I was teammates with Jeff Thue, Bruce's 92 finals opponent. 

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12 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Satiev has three Olympic golds and six World golds.  That puts him in the running to be the GOAT for all of freestyle wrestling, not just in Russia.  His three Olympic freestyle golds are matched by only one other man, Medved, who is the other person in the running for GOAT for all of freestyle wrestling. The fact that Satiev came home empty-handed in a "fluke" victory by his opponent in 2000 doesn't take away from his overall greatness...not when he has 3 other Olympic gold medals.  The only time it should count against Satiev is if you are arguing about who is better between him and Medved. 

JB has a single Olympic gold medal, and his legacy is gold (2012), DNP (2016), and did not make team (2020).  These are not even close to the same situation.

This is also a completely different situation from Smith-Burroughs.  Kemp would have won gold in Moscow had the USA not boycotted.  Kemp had his chance taken away from him by something out of control.  Cejudo is below Kemp because he ONLY has the Olympic gold.  Henry made one other World team  in 2007 and lost his first match.  He also tried to make the Olympic team again in 2012 and lost to Nick Simmons.    This shows Henry's Olympic gold was an aberration.  

It is not possible for Burroughs to ever pass Smith in my mind when he went 1-2 in Rio and didn't make the team for Tokyo.  The fact that he didn't make the team for the Tokyo Olympics also needs to be taken into account when comparing JB to Smith.  JB is a legend and one of our best, but not the American GOAT.  

Not possible to pass Smith…wow. So you don’t at all factor in his competition and that there were 10 weights?  Do you know how much more difficult that makes it?  Burroughs and Cox didn’t make the team this year.  It makes a huge difference. The Olympics are no different than worlds in terms of difficulty.  It’s the same guys!  It may be more prestigious but it’s no more difficult. 

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34 minutes ago, wrestlingshoe said:

I actually knew that. I was teammates with Jeff Thue, Bruce's 92 finals opponent. 

You mean you were Thue's training partner at Barcelona? 

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48 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Not possible to pass Smith…wow. So you don’t at all factor in his competition and that there were 10 weights?  Do you know how much more difficult that makes it?  Burroughs and Cox didn’t make the team this year.  It makes a huge difference. The Olympics are no different than worlds in terms of difficulty.  It’s the same guys!  It may be more prestigious but it’s no more difficult. 

The taylor over dake morons are polluting other discussions....

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

The taylor over dake morons are polluting other discussions....

Whatever.  So you're telling me if JB wins 2 more non-Olympic weight World titles and fails to make the 2024 Olympic Team he should pass Smith?  I guess we see it differently.

If I were one of those Russian 74kg backups like Zhamalov, I would move up to 79kg to get an easy World gold in 2022/2023 and build confidence, ala Kyle Dake in 2018/2019.  Zhamalov would only have to beat JB.  

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38 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Whatever.  So you're telling me if JB wins 2 more non-Olympic weight World titles and fails to make the 2024 Olympic Team he should pass Smith?  I guess we see it differently.

If I were one of those Russian 74kg backups like Zhamalov, I would move up to 79kg to get an easy World gold in 2022/2023 and build confidence, ala Kyle Dake in 2018/2019.  Zhamalov would only have to beat JB.  

You got me...i have no clue why they even have worlds.....

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John Smith or Jordan Burroughs ? let them share the highest platform like the 2 High Jumpers did at the last Olympics ..Greatness personified ...I took a break from following sports when John Smith was at his prime but 6 consecutive Golds[ 4 Worlds +2 Olympics ] is phenomenal ..

..Jordan I have seen and followed since the days when he was battling Frank Molinaro in N.J. high school states.. For the record less then 3 weeks after graduating college Jordan started wrestling Freestyle full time .winning the US Open in early April 2011

A few months later wins Worlds in 2011

,won Olympics in 2012

,won Worlds in 2013 on a broken ankle

2014 .I believe he was 70-0 when  he lost 4-4 to Nick Marable on criteria At the 2014 Yashar  { by the way some posters were making light of Nick Marable; he was one tough dude he gave Mark Perry all he could handle  losing to him by 2 pts in the semis Perry's senior yr..and Marable did win  the 2011 Pan American Championships, 2013 NYAC Internal, 2014 Grand Prix of Paris, and the 2015 Dave Schultz Memorial, .besides winning the 2014 Yasher  Dogu..  Then Burroughs reels off another 21 straight wins till in an early match at the 2014 Worlds he badly sprains  his MCL and is a cripple on one leg and loses to Denis Tsargush 2-9 If you watched that match many times Burroughs was in deep on a double leg and just couldn't drive through on one leg .How he came back on one leg  to take bronze pinning the guy from Ukraine is a testament to his guts courage and determination truly remarkable

2015 Burroughs wins Worlds again  ..

2016 .Olympic Year!!..His International record is 130-2  after rolling up 39 more consecutive wins  . Then in June for my way of thinking the worst thing happened as a fan.. Jordan misses the World Cup ,as his wife had just had another child and being a good man ,husband ,and father he misses the tournament ..I wanted him to wrestle there and lose to Hassan Yazdanicharati from Iran who teched Derringer ,the Russian and everyone else in the tournament...I felt a loss there would infuriate him , make him work that much harder with the Olympics right around the corner ..I just sensed an aura of complacency about him {like "I got this"} going into that Olympics ..In the 1/4's he loses to Aniuar Geduev who had beaten twice before 2-3 ..in a match that was brutal and bloody with so many stoppages it seemed  Jordan was taken out of his game and couldn't set anything up ,with so many whistles .. and though he will never use it as an excuse I think he wrestled most of the match with a brain concussion ..I'm not taking anything away from Geduev ,he wrestled great and was tough as nails ,in fact Gedluev had Yazdanicharati beat till the very end in the finals [with his head all wrapped up and Mumified  like Jordan was against him}  but after that Jordan's heart and spirit left him and he gets teched by a guy he destroyed a month earlier. and would later beat twice more

2017 Wins Worlds again 

2018  Loses to  Sidakov  5-6 on a[ last 10 seconds?? left] take down ...[has learned his lesson from Rio ..takes Bronze

2019 Burroughs loses again by a point 3-4 to Sidakov in the last seconds ... takes Bronze 

2020 ...........No olympics or worlds for anyone 

2021  doesnt make Olympic team but wins another  Worlds at 79kg

so if you think how close he was to beating Sidakov twice and the devastating injury in 2014 when he was considered the best wrestler in the world ,,he was real close to 8 world golds + 1 Olympic 

. 9 out of 10 years medaling   

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12 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Not possible to pass Smith…wow. So you don’t at all factor in his competition and that there were 10 weights?  Do you know how much more difficult that makes it?  Burroughs and Cox didn’t make the team this year.  It makes a huge difference. The Olympics are no different than worlds in terms of difficulty.  It’s the same guys!  It may be more prestigious but it’s no more difficult. 

I'm not sure the 10 vs 7 weights is that much of a factor,,,mainly because the guys who go up in weight generally don't have the horsepower to take the top spot anyway. I think you probably get the same amount of entrants either way to try out for the national team. 

More of a factor is the break-up of the USSR. But those guys live poorer NOW than they used to, without Soviet money to support them and their program professionally.

However....today's USA wrestlers are generally financially supported better than yesterday's wrestlers. Able to buy better food, better living conditions, etc. Did you see that cool house Dake lives in? :-)

It may be a wash. What sucks is that we see FEWER great wrestlers at the Olympics.

 

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I think the worst mark against Smith is his loss to the Bronze medalist in 1992 Qualification - we can't know how that tournament would have played out in today's brackets, but when someone loses to the bronze medalist today, that would be a DNP. 

Smith still has an advantage on excellence, but it's not by as much as some are arguing.

Burroughs has the obvious advantage over Smith on duration, but he's highly unlikely to pass Big Bruce's 13 medals - I don't think anyone expects JB to keep wrestling after 2024

Smith = Most Excellent 

Bruce = Most Decorated

The only question is whether JB is the best when measured by an average of both standards. By 2024 he could solidify that. 

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On 10/7/2021 at 12:58 AM, Gio said:

Little bit different - Gatsalov is 2 time olimpic gold medalist -just tier below 3 timers. He is one of the greats and Snyder faced him but Tsargush is nowere near his level. I dont call JB worse or bad - i call his technique limited - and that means nothing if it his way to compete. I just prefer guys like John Smith or David Taylor who shows beaty of US wrestling shool based on folkstyle. 
without doubt JB is a big gun as you said. I talked that JB is limited in his technique (personal preferences) and didnt met top lvl opposition back then - only Tsargush so i dont now who JS met but if you bring here compettition lvl argument - why Snyderin not greater than him? Who met competition stronger than Kyle SNyder- if Sadulaev remained at previous weight  he would be 2 time olimpian and etc

As someone else pointed out, Gatsalov is a one-time Olympic champ and five-time world champ — just like Burroughs.

I agree with you that both Gatsalov and Burroughs are “big guns” who are among the greats.

Of course, unlike Gatsalov, Burroughs competed almost exclusively in a different style of wrestling until he was 22.

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13 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

You got me...i have no clue why they even have worlds.....

UWW should have the same weights at the Olympics and Worlds.  Olympic gold is worth significantly more than World gold because it's every 4 years and its the Olympics.  In fact, there are some athletes that would take a Olympic silver or bronze over a World gold.

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40 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

UWW should have the same weights at the Olympics and Worlds.  Olympic gold is worth significantly more than World gold because it's every 4 years and its the Olympics.  In fact, there are some athletes that would take a Olympic silver or bronze over a World gold.

I wish both had much bigger brackets, like Fargo-style 160-man round-robin double-elimination. . . Or,  like a Grand Slam tennis tournament, wrestled over a fortnight . . . Weigh-in every other day. Your body/career would probably only survive 1 year.

Edited by jackwebster

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5 hours ago, BadgerMon said:

I'm not sure the 10 vs 7 weights is that much of a factor,,,mainly because the guys who go up in weight generally don't have the horsepower to take the top spot anyway. I think you probably get the same amount of entrants either way to try out for the national team. 

More of a factor is the break-up of the USSR. But those guys live poorer NOW than they used to, without Soviet money to support them and their program professionally.

However....today's USA wrestlers are generally financially supported better than yesterday's wrestlers. Able to buy better food, better living conditions, etc. Did you see that cool house Dake lives in? :-)

It may be a wash. What sucks is that we see FEWER great wrestlers at the Olympics.

 

10 weights makes a huge difference. Some come down ala Kyle Dake and keep 5 time world champs off the team. I’m not sure how you can argue otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, AnklePicker said:

10 weights makes a huge difference. Some come down ala Kyle Dake and keep 5 time world champs off the team. I’m not sure how you can argue otherwise. 

Maybe I shouldn't argue it...but again...yesterday vs today has it's pros and cons. 

Your overall field is larger with 10 weights. How many MORE guys try out per weight class because they believe they have a shot??? 

The year after Olympics often has less of a turn-out to make the World Team.

 

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7 hours ago, denger said:

I think the worst mark against Smith is his loss to the Bronze medalist in 1992 Qualification - we can't know how that tournament would have played out in today's brackets, but when someone loses to the bronze medalist today, that would be a DNP. 

Smith still has an advantage on excellence, but it's not by as much as some are arguing.

Burroughs has the obvious advantage over Smith on duration, but he's highly unlikely to pass Big Bruce's 13 medals - I don't think anyone expects JB to keep wrestling after 2024

Smith = Most Excellent 

Bruce = Most Decorated

The only question is whether JB is the best when measured by an average of both standards. By 2024 he could solidify that. 

If that is his worst mark, then you are really saying he doesn't have any.  It was a meaningless qualifying match, Smith already clinched going on to the next round.

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That depends on how much weight you put on world and Olympic medals. IMO two Olympic Golds trump a lot of world gold medals. Some food for thought: there are plenty of wrestling fans who have no clue who Besik Kudukhov is, but almost everyone knows who John Smith is. Does anybody remember the tear that Kudukhov went on? He was by far the best wrestler on the planet in any white class. But for whatever reason he did not get it done when all the marbles were on the line.

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The easiest way to explain the Olympics vs worlds debate is Mavlet Batirov. I’m pretty sure he has a third world title. But everyone knows him as a two time Olympic champ. And don’t really care that he didn’t medal in between 04 and 08

 

EDIT: WHOOPS!! He won in 07. My point about everyone saying 2x Olympic champ before 3x world stands. Never seen him referred to as the latter only the former

Edited by jp157

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2 hours ago, RajaThaiKnee said:

That depends on how much weight you put on world and Olympic medals. IMO two Olympic Golds trump a lot of world gold medals. Some food for thought: there are plenty of wrestling fans who have no clue who Besik Kudukhov is, but almost everyone knows who John Smith is. Does anybody remember the tear that Kudukhov went on? He was by far the best wrestler on the planet in any white class. But for whatever reason he did not get it done when all the marbles were on the line.

I can see why you value Oly medals more that WC medals nowadays, when the weights shrink to 6 from 10. But in John Smith's time, there were 10 weights for both so they would have been roughly equal.

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On 10/7/2021 at 2:18 AM, Gio said:

Dude JB and Tsargush were nowere near Saitiev, Tsargush 3d world happened because JB injury. You guys wants to make Tsargush one great rival but he wasnt, He wasnt great wrestler. He was not at JB lvl and at linked video - even Dake with 1 injured hand won over him - rewatch it - Dake literally wrestled using 1 hand. JB is great wrestler - yes his style bit primitive (but that doesnt matter)  but JB had not met really great wrestlers at international lvl till Sidakov. Kyle Snyder faced much harder  opponents during his career. So if you uses competition lvl to make JB goat US wrestler use it to all. I personally count Snyder better wrestler who unlucky to compete at Sadulaev era

First of all I never said they were on Saitievs level. I said they were the next great 74kgers. I also like how you fail to address my point of tsargush still being a young, developing and up and coming talent when he went up against saitiev. Tsargush was objectively a great 74kg considering his results. You're simply biased against him for whatever reason. 

I don't know why you keep bringing up Snyder like it somehow helps your argument. Especially when I never mentioned him. 

Just as @Plasmodium said, if saitiev had trouble with slay then JB wouldve given him some serious problems. 

Edited by BTC

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