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Yianni - 2021 worlds

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Yo

2 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

Totally agree.  The reality here- there are almost as many world class wrestlers at 65 kg than there are at the other five Olympic weights combined.  At 86 and 97 kg you basically have to worry about the Russian and the Iranian these days.  At 65 kg, virtually every wrestler in the 32 man bracket is a threat.  Typically Russia has a half dozen guys that can beat our best guy on any given day.  There's a reason we haven't medaled here in 15 years, despite sending a variety of guys that were considered legends.  What's ironic is that it's arguably the least heralded guys we sent (Zadick and Molinaro) that did the best.  Go figure. 

 

 

 

You set the table to say, "Jamill Kelly"  but it didn't make it . 

You're right though. It's seemingly a weight where every country has a capable "Body"
I think that's what keeps 65/74 so deep. 
Naturally Smaller and naturally Larger countries tend to have respectable guys in here. 
*Could be the beers talking, but that sounds like a reasonable explanation .

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On 10/10/2021 at 8:20 PM, spladle08 said:

Yo

You set the table to say, "Jamill Kelly"  but it didn't make it . 

You're right though. It's seemingly a weight where every country has a capable "Body"
I think that's what keeps 65/74 so deep. 
Naturally Smaller and naturally Larger countries tend to have respectable guys in here. 
*Could be the beers talking, but that sounds like a reasonable explanation .

I have consistently found that now matter the location. Be it Alabama, Arkansas, Ohio, Illinois, Tennessee, Georgia etc etc. That between 140-160. It is always the deepest and the least likely place to see late starters or “surprise” kids come from. 
 The reasons why are obvious. But it is interesting that even in “terrible” states. The exception to the terrible wrestling, especially below the finalists. will be those weights

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Good to see some respect being put on 65kg. Tearing guys apart for not placing here was naïve during the Metcalf era, and it is during the current era. You have to be unbelievably good and still have everything fall into place exactly right to come away with a podium finish here.

To illustrate how ridiculous it is, since 2016 (6 competitions):

repeat champs: 1: Otoguro

repeat finalists: 1: Otoguro

repeat medalists: 4: Otoguro, Punia, Rashidov,  Valdez

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

Good to see some respect being put on 65kg. Tearing guys apart for not placing here was naïve during the Metcalf era, and it is during the current era. You have to be unbelievably good and still have everything fall into place exactly right to come away with a podium finish here.

To illustrate how ridiculous it is, since 2017 (6 competitions):

repeat champs: 1: Otoguro

repeat finalists: 1: Otoguro

repeat medalists: 4: Otoguro, Punia, Rashidov,  Valdez

So you're saying only Otoguro is any good?

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So you're saying only Otoguro is any good?
He really is amazing. Bout as clutch as they come.

In Nur-Sultan he did get smoked by Rashidov but in his stinker 5th place finish, he ended with wins over Tevanyan and Aliyev.... (Lost to Rashidov and Muz)

He and Rashidov are 2 people where if one of our guys snags a win (at any tournament) over them.... I'll start boarding the hype train.

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16 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

He really is amazing. Bout as clutch as they come.

In Nur-Sultan he did get smoked by Rashidov but in his stinker 5th place finish, he ended with wins over Tevanyan and Aliyev.... (Lost to Rashidov and Muz)

He and Rashidov are 2 people where if one of our guys snags a win (at any tournament) over them.... I'll start boarding the hype train.

Those two are a cut above the rest of an incredibly stacked weight division imo.  None of our guys are on this level, but Yianni is the closest.

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1 hour ago, GoNotQuietly said:

He only has three senior loses (to Higuchi, Rashidov, and Muszukajev) and he has avenged every one of them. Pretty special talent.

That roll he hits on his double is a thing of beauty 

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If I’m not mistaken Otoguro and Yianni won cadet world together. (2015)  Since then Oto has entered three world level senior tournaments, leaving as a world champ, world fifth, and Olympic champ. His gold medal performances: his world championship came with 50 total points scored in his semi final and final matches, his Olympic gold came with a combined score of 8-6 in those same two matches. He can win any way he needs to. Both competing in that same most talent deep weight in the world. 
 

in case anyone wants to see a true litmus test of our system vs the rest of the world. 

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i didn't realize how young he was, what a freak.
Further up this thread, people repeatedly said "Yainni's just young let him develop.."
To which I had to ask, "why are the rest of the guys his age gonna stop developing"

But yeah this weight is a ridiculous gauntlet. With all the talent we have I'd be surprised with a world/Olympic finalist in 22/23/24....

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If I’m not mistaken Otoguro and Yianni won cadet world together. (2015)  Since then Oto has entered three world level senior tournaments, leaving as a world champ, world fifth, and Olympic champ. His gold medal performances: his world championship came with 50 total points scored in his semi final and final matches, his Olympic gold came with a combined score of 8-6 in those same two matches. He can win any way he needs to. Both competing in that same most talent deep weight in the world. 
 
in case anyone wants to see a true litmus test of our system vs the rest of the world. 
Love it.

I mentioned that as well up the thread.
Lots of young guys at the weight, several currently better than Johnny.

People are like "wait until he develops for the Olympics."

I don't understand why 2 more years of folkstyle while these guys only do freestyle
Will yield greater results than the 2 years he just used for Olympic preparation.

I won't say he's falling behind at some extraordinary pace but he is falling behind.

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9 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Love it.

I mentioned that as well up the thread.
Lots of young guys at the weight, several currently better than Johnny.

People are like "wait until he develops for the Olympics."
 

You keep saying this like a parrot or broken record. We get it. You think “Johnny” is done progressing. He won’t ever medal. He’s only good domestically. 

Nobody said Yianni would win the Olympics. I personally did say that I expect him to improve with more experience. Could he medal at the Olympics? if Myles Amine can…. But that’s not even the point. The point is that people have different ceilings and improve at different rates. A guy like Otoguro who is already on any P4P list might not improve as much as a guy who is the same age but hasn’t sniffed a medal despite having solid wins over Olympic and world medalists already. Yianni is fundamentally changing (maybe “adjusting” is better) his approach and is showing some signs of progress in doing so. Otoguro is not. They can both get better. I think they both will. I just think a guy with way more holes has more to fix than a guy who wrestles almost perfectly already. 

I also think you are overweighting the loss at Worlds. Way too results-oriented in your analysis. It was bad, but his wins to make the team showed progress. It’s not clear that Yianni will improve a lot, just like it’s not clear that he won’t. You keep bringing up the idea that Yianni is highly unlikely to catch up to the field because he’s the same age as a lot of good wrestlers. That is not a good argument at all. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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9 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Also, if Yainni did go full freestyle from now through the Olympics, I'd anticipate a medal.
I know it's not in the cards but....... Man, i feel like he's a wasted talent for awhile .

How do you say this right after saying he can’t make gains on the field because he’s not that young anymore?

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You keep saying this like a parrot or broken record. We get it. You think “Johnny” is done progressing. He won’t ever medal. He’s only good domestically. You also thought with great confidence that Chamizo would beat Dake and JB was a lock, among other dandies. You might be right, but you might also be whiffing again. 
Nobody said Yianni would win the Olympics. I personally did say that I expect him to improve with more experience. Could he medal at the Olympics? if Myles Amine can, sure, Yianni has a shot too. Even at 65 Kg. But that’s not even the point. The point is that people have different ceilings and improve at different rates. A guy like Otoguro who is already on any P4P list might not improve as much as a guy who is the same age but hasn’t sniffed a medal despite having solid wins over Olympic and world medalists already. Yianni is fundamentally changing (maybe “adjusting” is better) his approach and is showing some signs of progress in doing so. Otoguro is not. They can both get better. I think they both will. I just think a guy with way more holes has more to fix than a guy who wrestles almost perfectly already. 
I also think you are overweighting the loss at Worlds. Way too results-oriented in your analysis. It was bad, but his wins to make the team showed progress. It’s not clear that Yianni will improve a lot, just like it’s not clear that he won’t. You keep bringing up the idea that Yianni is highly unlikely to catch up to the field because he’s the same age as a lot of good wrestlers. That is not a good argument at all. 


It's a great argument actually and in no way is it taking away from Yainni.

I agree he is a great talent with a ton of room to grow.
I said if he was to continue only focusing on freestyle from now through 2024 I'd expect a medal.
(Because I think he is "right there" with the best in the world and as you said, continued "experience" in freestyle could change a 50/50 he has right now to a 60/40 by the Olympics. But as is ..... He is the one , not getting as much experience through 2024, or so we expect... So it stands to reason with lack of experience will come lack of preparedness, or for the other people his age, continued experience will yield more preparedness)

Simply: The guys who are on his level will continue to inch forward and "learn" how to win freestyle matches while he continues to win folkstyle matches in scrambly leg diving positions.

(Sorry I missed on Dake vs Chamizo and JB... Hope you understand I'll also predict Chamizo to beat Superman if they wrestle, because I am and always will be a Homer)

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9 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

All the respect @wrestlingnerd but I can't subscribe to the idea that if you have 2 guys the same age in any sport. 
And one is better than the other. 
Because the worse one has more holes to fill, participating in the sport less will allow him to beat the better guy in future meetings. 

 

You are too rigid. That's now what I said would happen 100% of the time. We're not arguing in a vacuum. We have a lot of wrestling to observe and make an opinion. Your opinion vascillates between "Yianni can win a medal if he focuses on freestyle" to "he can't because he's as old as the likes of Otoguro and already focused on freestyle for two years and whiffed." Do you even have a position? I'm not trying to be a dik, I just don't get where you stand. Either is fine, but to snidely keep calling out me and others who might disagree with you on this thread is disingenuous when you don't even have a consistent position yourself.

Let's say Otouro is 70% of the way to his peak genetic potential. He's only 22, and he's not that active. I'd say he's minimally active to stay relevant at the world level, in fact. He has a very fundamental style and is obviously a master of freestyle. Translation: He has upside yet, but he is already at a very high level. 

Where I see Yianni: He is nowhere nearly as consistent as Otoguro and his style is nowhere near as locked in or successful. Yianni lived off of scrambles and making guys pay in the crackdown position. That used to be like 90% of his offense against guys he couldn't bumrush into submission. He then added misdirection shots (although almost always faking right and going left, a hole he has begun to fill) and reshots somewhat successfully. He then started downblocking successfully and being more intelligent about when to push (i.e. not in 50/50 situations) and when to stalemate it out. These are very basic adjustments, and they started happening about two years ago and are still nowhere near complete. He has made progress with it--maybe not in winning every match yet, but nevertheless, visible progress against solid guys.

Given these two assessments, who do you think is more likely to make more progress in the next 3-4 years? Maybe 100% of Yiannis is only as good as 60% of Otoguro. But my argument isn't that Yianni catches Otoguro. It's simply that he has a lot of upside yet and we are seeing a guy going through a stylistic transition. Even in his last few weeks since the Olympics, you can see that Dake has had a major influence on him and he is attempting to incorporate very similar movement in his own style. It's not working yet, but it's a new improvement he's trying to make. I view Yianni as the complete opposite of a guy like Metcalf in his approach. Metcalf tried to do what didn't work better. Yianni is making significant changes. Maybe they won't work against the elite guys. But he is definitely making gains.

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36 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Simply: The guys who are on his level will continue to inch forward and "learn" how to win freestyle matches while he continues to win folkstyle matches in scrambly leg diving positions.

(Sorry I missed on Dake vs Chamizo and JB... Hope you understand I'll also predict Chamizo to beat Superman if they wrestle, because I am and always will be a Homer)

 

The Chamizo thing was just busting balls. That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, so I deleted it but you caught my post before the edit! I think "Little Frankie" is done, man. I was with you that he was one of the very best. But he has peaked and is in decline now.

I do think folkstyle reinforces Yianni's bad habits. We 100% agree on that. However, I think Yianni is wrestling through the folkstyle season in anticipation of the next freestyle season. You can see it in his comments (he recently made a reluctant comment to the effect of "well, back to folkstyle, it needed to happen..."). I expect to see him use this folkstyle season as a way to sharpen the adjustments he's made. More like Snyder at tOSU than Yianni trying to establish himself in his first two years. We'll see. 

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I just don't get where you stand. Either is fine, but to snidely keep calling out me and others who might disagree with you on this thread is disingenuous when you don't even have a consistent position yourself.

No your breakdown is spot on.
And absolutely aligns with my position. "Johnny is neck and neck with the top guys, however, as long as he has the distraction of folk-style wrestling he will not outgain his competition of similar age and talent prior to next Olympics" 

Of course he is continually tweaking everything about his style (to better his FS results). You referenced the noticeable gains he has made, 2 years away from folkstyle training for the Olympics specifically. I agree, 2 more years of this trajectory and he could medal. 

I also believe however. No matter how much freestyle you practice in the room, a full NCAA season hinders your progress, especially when the weight is tough and you're going to have to wrestling more folk heavy positions. 

KS had the fortune of being heavier, where in Folk or Freestyle, it's "Can you get a basic takedown repeatedly".
For every stride Johnny makes, practicing diving through and grabbing ankles, and everything that makes him fun to watch in college, kind of hinders his development. 
So Yes, I do not think he makes enough progress by 2024 to medal. 
Yes, I think when he commits to only freestyle like he has the last 2 years, and gains experience, we will see those 50/50 match turn to 60/40 and 70/30.... 
if he hangs around until 2028 he could be one of the best 65kg guys we've ever had. 

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8 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

The Chamizo thing was just busting balls. That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, so I deleted it but you caught my post before the edit! I think "Little Frankie" is done, man. I was with you that he was one of the very best. But he has peaked and is in decline now.

I do think folkstyle reinforces Yianni's bad habits. We 100% agree on that. However, I think Yianni is wrestling through the folkstyle season in anticipation of the next freestyle season. You can see it in his comments (he recently made a reluctant comment to the effect of "well, back to folkstyle, it needed to happen..."). I expect to see him use this folkstyle season as a way to sharpen the adjustments he's made. More like Snyder at tOSU than Yianni trying to establish himself in his first two years. We'll see. 

Didn't see this before I responded but yes
I agree Folkstyle hinders his development, but I also (Like you) imagine while training Folk he is cognizant of the improvements he needs to focus on for Freestyle. 

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On 10/7/2021 at 10:29 AM, spladle08 said:

Yeah, I think he's a level below most of the guys on the side he ended up on but he "could" upset any of them .

I think you're right, he's slightly above probably everyone on the other side, but they "could" upset him... Basically the entire other-side was Joey McKenna.... You expect Yainni to win but if he drops 1 of 4 you wouldn't be surprised .

Isn’t Yianni 2-2 vs McKenna this year? 

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1 minute ago, CoachWrestling said:

Isn’t Yianni 2-2 vs McKenna this year? 

Probably, which was kind of my point, there's a lot of Joey's out there and it's hard to imagine navigating a world bracket at this point when the McKennas of the world could upset you in any round, cause even losing to the top guys is risky here because you have no clue who is making the finals. 
At 86kg you hope you draw Taylor or Yazdani first round. 
At 65kg you just gotta hope you make the semis if you want to wrestle for a medal. 

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