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tommygun

National Duals: Dead?

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How does the over-wrestle argument fly when the MN team of 10 produced 8 AAs after winning national duals?

 

Team has been an important aspect of wrestling since the beginning of the sport. Are we officially seeing the end of the value of a balanced team then?

 

Is this a key sacrifice to avoid the end of the sport altogether?

 

What's next? Eliminate HWT since they are P4P the worst wrestlers?

 

if the dual dates don't count against your schedule you can chose to wrestle 3/4 more times or eliminate 3/4 duals outside of your conference schedule. so coaches right now are putting it in order like this. 1) be ready for your conference tournament 2) keep your revenue producing schedule intact 3) go to national duals

 

if your program doesn't produce much revenue on duals, national duals are great. you can get great dual competition at zero cost to your program. if you have to give up a dual that brings $30-50k to your program you have something to think about.

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Why spend the time with a whole team of wrestlers when five can win you the NCAA's. That's not a shot at Penn State (although they did fit the profile), but something that shows the extreme that it's not about team depth or a "team" -- it's about superstars. To hell with you .500 senior roleplaying starter, we need mega studs to show we're the best.

 

Rhetorical question. As always, I supported two national championships, not either side over the other.

 

But this is clearly limiting to the second tear of dual-competitive teams like Edinboro, Central Michigan. It'll always be the same five teams contending.

 

i think this comes back to the idea that we score duals in a very basic system, and it doesn't fairly assess the skill of a team. there have been many great ideas of how to change dual scoring for the better thrown around on this board.

 

i agree two ncaa recognized titles would be the best outcome.

 

the second tier dual teams like edinboro and central michigan have finished just as high in the individual tournament as they would have in the dual format.

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Supporting this sport proves more difficult every year.

 

do you blame penn state and iowa for wanting to keep 2,3 or 4 home duals where they produce $30-50k or even take their show on the road and help sell out utah valley or bloomsburg? the ncaa championship model puts the host teams on the hook of a guarantee amount of championship revenue.

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the second tier dual teams like edinboro and central michigan have finished just as high in the individual tournament as they would have in the dual format.

 

When has Central Michigan finished #2 in the country at the NCAA tournament? They were the #2 dual team in the country the year they beat Oklahoma State and won the VA Duals.

 

What's Edinboro's best finish at the NCAA championships with their best dual team? Sixth? That's not 2nd.

 

So no, they haven't.

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I think most college wrestling fans enjoy dual meets and would never want them to end. I think the National Duals is a great idea with regard to a team dual tournament. The push back that happened had more to do with a national duals format "replacing" the NCAA championships to determine the overall team championship. It was also the way things were being handled that brought about a negative reaction.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again that I think the NWCA all-star event would be better served holding a one day event later in the season holding two dual line-ups that would include the top available finishers from the Scuffle and the Midlands to compete, and a host a second dual for both team champions from the Nat. Duals and VA Duals to compete. This concept would not only strengthen the four marquee annual events that have been going on for years, and bolster the All-Star event to give it more importance.

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Most of the fans were willing to give this event a chance too bad the sponsors weren't. Poorly executed, terrible pairings. Avoiding regional appeal, holding events in boring, hard to get in and out of, reasonably and terrible promotion due to late start doomed this. I don't think one dual I attended mentioned this event and the wrestling media except for the message boards gave it short shrift. Once again the coaches and their organization allowed internecine warfare and self serving mentalities to deconstruct a decent idea. Makes me sad.

 

I actually enjoyed the old way, with everyone competing. Perhaps the sponsor might consider allowing interdivisional competition for schools who wish to "Go for it" at end of event. I'm thinking there may be fan interest in watching the winners compete. I'm guessing D1 is tough but NAIA, JUCO and D2 &3 might surprise. There is a lot of talent that had HS grade issues and SAT problems who are very talented but could not make the cut.

 

BTW why isn't the location and dates for 2014 posted yet? Planning in advance makes travel far less expensive. a large consideration for those who aren't on the teat, comped or paid for by school programs

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Why spend the time with a whole team of wrestlers when five can win you the NCAA's. That's not a shot at Penn State (although they did fit the profile), but something that shows the extreme that it's not about team depth or a "team" -- it's about superstars. To hell with you .500 senior roleplaying starter, we need mega studs to show we're the best.

 

 

 

 

It took all 10 of PSU's starters to bring home the title. They all qualified and they all scored points.

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I enjoy the dual format and believe duals should determine the team national champion. Its a shame that a workable format could not be established. Hopefully, some of the mistakes and concerns will be addressed and the wrestling community will give this another run at a later date.

 

Maybe eliminating the team score at the individual NCAA tournament and only recognizing the dual champion as the national championship team would have helped. AT least in Illinois, this is how it is done in HS. Once the IHSA moved to a dual meet team state championship format, they eliminated team scores from the individual state meet.

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the second tier dual teams like edinboro and central michigan have finished just as high in the individual tournament as they would have in the dual format.

 

When has Central Michigan finished #2 in the country at the NCAA tournament? They were the #2 dual team in the country the year they beat Oklahoma State and won the VA Duals.

 

What's Edinboro's best finish at the NCAA championships with their best dual team? Sixth? That's not 2nd.

 

So no, they haven't.

 

not sure where my original response to this went...

 

in 07-08 cm finished 2nd in the dual rankings, but they went 1-2 at national duals. they lost to minny and iowa state. they finished tied for 7th at ncaa's. teams 2-8 were separated by 10 points. iowa was so far ahead of everyone that year the team championship wasn't in question. not exactly the best example to prove your case.

 

08-09 they beat ok state at va duals. ok state wasnt very good that year. cm went on to lose to vt, kent state, and tie nebraska. earlier in the year they had lost to iowa.

 

did scott justus win an ncaa title or was he just ranked and seeded number 1?

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the second tier dual teams like edinboro and central michigan have finished just as high in the individual tournament as they would have in the dual format.

 

When has Central Michigan finished #2 in the country at the NCAA tournament? They were the #2 dual team in the country the year they beat Oklahoma State and won the VA Duals.

 

What's Edinboro's best finish at the NCAA championships with their best dual team? Sixth? That's not 2nd.

 

So no, they haven't.

 

not sure where my original response to this went...

 

in 07-08 cm finished 2nd in the dual rankings, but they went 1-2 at national duals. they lost to minny and iowa state. they finished tied for 7th at ncaa's. teams 2-8 were separated by 10 points. iowa was so far ahead of everyone that year the team championship wasn't in question. not exactly the best example to prove your case.

 

08-09 they beat ok state at va duals. ok state wasnt very good that year. cm went on to lose to vt, kent state, and tie nebraska. earlier in the year they had lost to iowa.

 

did scott justus win an ncaa title or was he just ranked and seeded number 1?

 

But the comment was about them finishing just as high, which is not the case. Central Michigan, Edinboro and teams of the like will not win NCAA titles under the current format. They can compete in duals with the big boys because they have solid kids in their program and their coaches produce good talent. They're competitive, but will never win an NCAA championship.

 

FATMANROLL,

Did I say it was a specific shot at Penn State? I don't believe I did. Please reread my comment. I said they fit the profile, but as much as I love the tournament, but what are you more likely to argue "We had 10 guys score points" or are you going to argue "We had five in the finals?" One is notably better the way the tournament is scored, but it's not as glamorous. Just like Minnesota's title with no one in the finals and 10 AA's isn't glamorous. What's the better title in terms of "team?"

 

Superstars win NCAA team titles, not a balanced team -- ok, well, a balanced team of superstars does too.

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Dual results are easily reversed and it's easier to pull off an upset. That's why Cornell fans have vilified Sanderson as they pushed for the duals as the championship. They are hopeful they can steal a win over a superior team. Much more difficult in a tournament setting.

 

In regard to Penn State; 10 qualifiers all of whom scored points; 5 finalist AND 2 round of 12 guys. During the season they had 5 shutouts (including at Illinois) and 3 wins with only one match loss. How could anyone legitimately say they lacked team balance?

 

What's really amazing about all this is before Penn State started winning championships, no one had a problem with the current system, at least not enough to propose a change or even talk about seriously here.

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Dual results are easily reversed and it's easier to pull off an upset. That's why Cornell fans have vilified Sanderson as they pushed for the duals as the championship. They are hopeful they can steal a win over a superior team. Much more difficult in a tournament setting.

 

In regard to Penn State; 10 qualifiers all of whom scored points; 5 finalist AND 2 round of 12 guys. During the season they had 5 shutouts (including at Illinois) and 3 wins with only one match loss. How could anyone legitimately say they lacked team balance?

 

What's really amazing about all this is before Penn State started winning championships, no one had a problem with the current system, at least not enough to propose a change or even talk about seriously here.

 

Plenty of talk about the system. It rears its head every couple of years. I recall it being a topic of heated discussion on the old format. It's not constant, but it more often comes up on the HS board where scoring is more broad than in college (2 points for advancement vs 1, etc.)

 

I don't care who wins, I really don't. We're on the way to being tennis. We're really going to draw huge crowds with duals which continue to mean zilch.

 

Outside of 6-7 teams, no one shows up for duals, well, no one shows up for tournaments either. Save ONE.

 

"Stealing" a win happens in every other freakin' sport. I'm sick of that argument. The superior team doesn't always win. Georgetown was superior to Florida Gulf Coast. It's like you have a problem with upsets. If there were no upsets, there'd be no point to watching anything.

 

Our sport exists at the college level for three days, that's it. THREE days means everything. To me, that's the most frustrating. Not who wins or who loses.

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The wrestling merits of National Duals have been beaten to death, and beaten again for good measure. The bottom line:

 

NCAAs: sells out major arenas for 3 days

National Duals: one-day event with 1/4-full arenas at Oklahoma State and Minnesota

 

The fans have voted with their feet and wallets, and they disagree with this board. If the event is to continue, someone needs to devise a plan to put butts in seats.

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Jason, are you frustrated that 6 months of summer are wiped out by 2 weeks of the World Series, after the rosters are made over at the end of July and again at the end of August? That 6th-seed wild card teams win the Super Bowl? That's just the way sports are.

 

Another post said derisively that wrestling is turning into tennis. Tennis, golf, bowling, and racing are the sports that have multiple national championships.

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Step one would be getting the best teams to actually attend. You eliminate three of the top four fanbases, what do you expect? Even one of them has a negative impact.

 

It's less about the event, in my opinion, than it is people being extremely picky. Even some Iowa fans don't go to every home match because they're wrestling an inferior opponent. We don't have a fanbase that actively searches out college wrestling. We have fans who only want to see "The best" -- to hell with watching anyone except Iowa, Penn State, Oklahoma State or Minnesota, right?

 

Guess what folks, we don't have thousands of college fans waiting to watch college wrestling. I guess this proves it. We have the same 18K who go to nationals each year. That's all we have to worry about. We will have no growth, we will stagnate and we will be tennis.

 

Three days in March. The other 362 don't matter to wrestling fans. They have spoken, you are correct.

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so going 1-2 at national duals is better than placing 7th at ncaa's? after their trip to national duals they beat michigan, eastern michigan, buffalo, no illinois, bloomsburg, chattanooga, kent state and ohio. i wouldn't want those actual results get in the way of the rankings. they accomplished more as a tournament team that year than they did as a dual team.

 

penn state didn't really fit the 5 man profile this year. those 5 scored the lions share of the points, but they didn't score enough to win it. just from guessing i would say the other 5 memebers scored 8-10 points. that was enough to change the outcome.

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Personally, I'm not really for or against the National Duals. I think a National Duals team championship could be every bit as popular as the current National Tournament team championship, but only if it came at the expense of it. Both cannot stand, because, currently, they need to be propped up by the small wrestling community. I think it is asking too much to show up for two national events in one season.

 

Let's be honest with ourselves, this is an individual sport. The artificial team aspect of wrestling is only going to bring in so many fans. I think we're maxed out on that front.

 

Although important, I also don't think rule changes will make much of a difference when it comes to acquiring fans. I've been at many sports bars during NFL games and 90% of these "fans" have no idea about offensive and defensive formations.

 

For wrestling, I think we're better off putting all our effort into marketing individual match ups like boxing (pacquio vs. mayweather), mma (sonnen vs. silva), or even track (dan vs. dave, usain bolt vs. the record books).

 

We are headed in the right direction with the whole Dake vs. Taylor drama, but we need to do that with more depth and on a larger scale. We need to relate how amazing our atheles are...television events should be showing sped-up clips of wrestlers doing 50+ pullups in a row, all-arm rope climbing, or Dake doing his gymnastic routines during warmups. Maybe we should be wrestling shirtless with fight shorts for the ladies...I'm not kidding.

 

Look at the olympics on NBC. It's one big human interest story.

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For wrestling, I think we're better off putting all our effort into marketing individual match ups like boxing (pacquio vs. mayweather), mma (sonnen vs. silva), or even track (dan vs. dave, usain bolt vs. the record books).

 

We are headed in the right direction with the whole Dake vs. Taylor drama, but we need to do that with more depth and on a larger scale. We need to relate how amazing our atheles are...television events should be showing sped-up clips of wrestlers doing 50+ pullups in a row, all-arm rope climbing, or Dake doing his gymnastic routines during warmups. Maybe we should be wrestling shirtless with fight shorts for the ladies...I'm not kidding.

 

Look at the olympics on NBC. It's one big human interest story.

 

This would be great ... just need to stop protecting seeds!

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