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tommygun

National Duals: Dead?

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More like Virginia Duals in its present reincarnation.

 

Which is all National Duals was in its earier versions anyhow. It formerly was an invitiational, and now it reverts back to an invitational. So they drop the pretense of making it a true team championship, move it to a nationally recognized venue, and hopefully (remaining to be seen) bring in some level of TV coverage beyond streaming internet video - that wouldn't be bad, in my book.

 

It's too bad that Iowa, Penn State, or OK State are not interested, but with 16 teams participating, I could see this being something worth seeing live - or at least tuning in on TV to watch. So if they move ahead on that basis - why would anyone object?

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Sounds to me like Grapple in the Garden, or whatever we want to call it, is a premier event, but not National Duals.

 

I attended Grapple in the Garden, and spoke with some of the MSG staff there who seemed a bit overwhelmed by the size of the crowd. "They told us this would be a small event" one of them told me - "We didn't expect anywhere near this kind of turnout!"

 

Some folks had suggested that Grapple in the Garden was intended to test the waters for a possible NCAA D-1 tournament at MSG - but maybe it was intended as a test run for a possible National Duals?

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As others have pointed out, what is wrong with just hosting a decent size dual tournament and just lose the name? Trying to force feed a National Team Championship moniker just didn't make sense. The National Championship on its own wasn't broken, so their was no need to "fix" it. Produce a single location premier event in an easy to access location and people will come. It boils down to putting forth a quality product and evidently the product over the last couple seasons wasn't that great. There is no shame in going back to the drawing board.

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As others have pointed out, what is wrong with just hosting a decent size dual tournament and just lose the name? Trying to force feed a National Team Championship moniker just didn't make sense. The National Championship on its own wasn't broken, so their was no need to "fix" it. Produce a single location premier event in an easy to access location and people will come. It boils down to putting forth a quality product and evidently the product over the last couple seasons wasn't that great. There is no shame in going back to the drawing board.

 

You speak a lot in hyperbole.

 

It's my opinion the team championship has always been broken. The problem is the leadership lacks courage to do anything about it.

 

http://thematforums.com/phpBB3/viewtopi ... 11&t=23187

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As others have pointed out, what is wrong with just hosting a decent size dual tournament and just lose the name?

ESPN isn't interested in covering a decent size dual tournament.

A decent sized dual tournament doesn't make regular season duals more meaningful.

If the whole thing is done in 1 weekend, by the time any casual fan hears about the big stories that emerge the event is over.

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ESPN isn't interested in covering a decent size dual tournament.

 

Are you certain of this? Or do you just want to believe this?

 

Obviously the prospect of getting national coverage is what was driving the push to crown an official team champion in the first place - but if that is no longer a possibility, is it possible that ESPN (or another network, perhaps?) would consider coverage of an event that might have broad enough viewership?

 

Supposing the objective would be to bring in representatives from every conference, and every geographic region. What would the list of invitees look like? Just pure conjecture, but I might start with:

 

ACC – Maryland, Va Tech

B1G – Assuming that Minnesota, maybe tOSU would agree to attend.

CAA – (edit - forgot, as of next season, CAA is gone as a wrestling conference)

Big 12 - Oklahoma, Iowa State

EIWA – It would be good to get last season’s top 3 – Cornell, Navy, Penn. MSG would also be a home meet for Columbia. Lehigh would be a fantastic draw, if they were interested.

EWL – Edinboro, Bloomsburg

MAC – Mizzou, Central Michigan, Kent State

PAC – Boise St., Oregon St. Arizona St.

SoCon – UTC, Citadel

WWC – Air Force, Wyoming

 

I would think just from that list right there, one could narrow down a pretty good field of 16 teams. Would ESPN be interested? Maybe, maybe not, but perhaps some other players? College Sports Network? NBC Sports?

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Its hard to watch this self-destructive behavior by wrestling coaches and leadership, and their short-sighted enabling fans.

 

Less than a year ago, we were just inches away from one of the best things to ever happen to college wresting -- TWO nationally-televised championship events instead of one, a true doubling of the number of events where people outside the insular wrestling world sit up to take notice of our sport.

 

But then for some competely incomprehensible and irrational reason, some quarters start complaining because the NWCA, rather than the NCAA, will be awarding the team trophy at the individual championships. As though anyone has any reason whatsoever to care who employs the dude that hands out the championship trophy. Its two championships, twice the audience, twice the revenue, twice the exposure!

 

But no. The vocal minority wouldn't shut up, apparently willing to morgage wrestling's future because they think their shot at winning a team title is better in an individual tournament format. And the more enlightened majority then kowtowed to accommodate the minority, deferring consideration for a later date. And as the final nail in the coffin, the minority apparently held a grudge, and killed the event altogether.

 

And so here we are, back on the same downward trajectory on which college wrestling has been for the better part of 30 years, having thrown back the life preserver that the NCAA and ESPN lofted to us.

 

Great job, guys. As wrestling continues to fade into oblivion, all that will be left for us to see are your smug self-satisfied Cheshire Cat smiles.

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BAC,

 

You say it's the "best thing" I say it was a horrible thing.

 

There is no proof other than hope that the proposed duals would have helped a thing and there were folks out there that would devalue the best thing in NCAA D1 wrestling(Current nationals) to take a chance.

 

Many were not willing to take the risk.

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ESPN isn't interested in covering a decent size dual tournament.

Are you certain of this? Or do you just want to believe this?

There have been big dual tournaments for years, when's the last time you saw one on ESPN?

 

National Duals has been around for years. When is the last time you saw them on ESPN?

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There have been big dual tournaments for years, when's the last time you saw one on ESPN?

 

National Duals has been around for years. When is the last time you saw them on ESPN?

 

To borrow from Cowbellman on the BWI Forum:

 

"You gotta want it, and you gotta believe. If you do both, good things will happen." ---Cael Sanderson

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National Duals has been around for years. When is the last time you saw them on ESPN?

I've never seen them on ESPN because ESPN has made it clear they aren't interested in big dual tournaments, they're interested in a national dual championship.

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National Duals has been around for years. When is the last time you saw them on ESPN?

I've never seen them on ESPN because ESPN has made it clear they aren't interested in big dual tournaments, they're interested in a national dual championship.

 

Where has this been made clear? I have seen it posted a few times but with no actual documentation or sourcing. Just because someone says it on the internet doesn't make it true.

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Just bc you aren't on the ncaa wrestling council or nwca executive council and haven't been a part of the conversations wrestlingphish doesn't mean it is some internet conspiracy it has been well communicated by coaches that they know espn has had an interest in picking up the event and brands even said a few years ago the goal was to get the ncaa to sponsor the dual championship though that was when they were pounding everyone

 

funny how no one is talking about how the big international events that are hyped are dual meets or how all of the events that beat the streets has done and everyone talks about how great they are have been duals let's not address the fact that these promoters avoid tournaments and wouldn't dare touch them and try to sell them to the public if anything international level is really about the individuals but it Is funny that the us wrestling foundation has tried to even turn the us open into a team competiton. funny how iowa wrestled no tournaments last year and draws the most fans funny how penn state wrestles one team scored tournament and their other tournaments the team standings are irrelivant for yet people think we love team scoring at tournaments yet both tournaments they wrestle in draw much worse than their duals even away duals despite the field loaded with studs. funny cornell has focused on duals and has built a huge fan base even canceling their body bar inviational so they can wrestle more duals in front of fans. funny how chattanooga sells out a dual with iowa in their small gym but has penn state and minnesota and cornell and other top teams and they draw the same number of fans leaving a ton of empty seats in their big arena even with taylor dake in their first official meeting. Yet people try to claim we like tournaments better? We only follow the team scores bc it is the national champiopnship no matter how the national championship is determined we will follow it

 

the crazy thing is that if there were a dual championship it would eventually lead to espn covering the big in season duals but they are not going to show duals that have no meaning to the season you start by getting the championship on televisoin then you grow into the in season events that are pivatal to the championship or may mirror the championship how do we do that now? we can't show duals because they have no impact on the championship and tournaments aren't too marketable but if there was a dual championship that really had a ncaa championship you would see penn state getting matches on espn even if only on espnu or esnp3 and you would see oklahaom state and penn state in a dual and the dual where iowa upset penn state in front of a packed house wouldn't have been limited to those that already knew about it.

 

lets face it wrestlers are selfish and they are all about themselves and that is part of the reason they picked the sport and it is the reason they are willing to kill the sport as long as they are the last one to turn the lights off

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lets face it wrestlers are selfish and they are all about themselves and that is part of the reason they picked the sport and it is the reason they are willing to kill the sport as long as they are the last one to turn the lights off
thank you. I've been trying to figure out how to say this.

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i dont get how a dual meet championship would in anyway diminish the final tournament. what are people so afraid of? its not like the top teams would no longer be favored to win the dual meet championship as well as the final tournament.

 

the potential downside is so small. and if somehow the precious final tournament is harmed you can just change it back. no big whoop.

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It is a myth that a dual meet championship is needed in order to bring legitimacy to regular season duals. They are perfectly legitimate in their own right. We do not need a dual meet champion even though some of you may want one. Let it go, the experiment failed and now it is time to move on and try something else.

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Scotty Casber interviews Mike Moyer on 5/13/13:

 

http://www.intermatwrestle.com/articles/11730

 

Sounds like the scaled back MSG event is indeed the plan.

 

I thought the comment starting about 4:35 was interesting - "Our best opportunities to overcome these kinds of challanges requires the perspective of the coaches... but it also requires the perspectives of the television executive..."

 

Sounds as if a television deal is part of what is driving this?

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Let it go, the experiment failed and now it is time to move on and try something else.

 

except the experiment was never tried, so it hasn't failed yet.

 

if there was something better to try, i'd be in favor of trying that. but there's nothing else being proposed that would even come close to matching the increase in exposure that ESPN was offering. but for whatever reason (still not heard a good one), a dual meet national championship isn't even worth trying.

 

maybe if we lose a dozen more D-1 scholarship programs we might actually be ready to give something new a try. until then i guess we're stuck with the current, perfect system.

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Seems to me that there are two arguments

 

1) better way to determine national title is duals

 

this is not something that either side would end up agreeing on, it seems some want a dual format to let more teams have a chance at winning...i mean we could also just flip coins if that is the main reason to going to the new format

 

2) what will help grow wrestling more?

 

whether or not there is anything on ESPN for 2 hours more is not going to grow wrestling...what is going to grow it is getting more local fans from new and smaller programs interested...so i again, do not see how getting a few thousand people at a school that is in no trouble of dropping wrestling to wrestle 7 other schools that are not going to drop wrestling is going to help anyone? I mean PSU outdrew National Duals both years at Utah Valley and Rutgers...the novelty of seeing those schools at minimum draws alumni and high school wrestling fans, who may not be college fans out of the woodwork...

 

Why not have some of the bigger programs each year make one trip to a smaller school on a rotating basis...the novelty of it will draw in crowds...Iowa at George Mason...Oklahoma State at Clarion...etc...ESPN is only going to be watched by those actually looking to watch it...with how ever many 100's of channels there are do you really think somebody is going stop and watch that is already not a fan of college wrestling?

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whether or not there is anything on ESPN for 2 hours more is not going to grow wrestling...what is going to grow it is getting more local fans from new and smaller programs interested...

The proposal was that regular season conference champs got an automatic bid to national duals, which would mean that a lot of the smaller programs in the SoCo, EWL, WCC, and CAA would have duals with real meaning in terms of qualifying for the national tournament.

 

What would be a more effective message to get people to show up for App St. vs the Citadel, or Rider vs. Binghamton or Air Force vs NDSU:

"Come watch your XYZ University wrestlers vie for a place in the Big Dance"

or

"Come watch your XYZ University wrestlers try to improve their seed for the conference tournament"?

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...with how ever many 100's of channels there are do you really think somebody is going stop and watch that is already not a fan of college wrestling?

 

One thing is for sure, you can't watch it if it ain't available at all.

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