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JohnnyThompsonnum1

Strongest wrestlers

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OD,

If you would have stated "in my opinion" this would not have been quite the issue. You are coming off, to me at least, as stating everything you say is fact and everything everyone else is saying against you is opinion. You did come back later and say it is your opinion.

As far as some of your points wouldn't you say the improved knowledge base (especially in regard to technique in particular) lead to some of the improvements over time? I have personally witnessed Hodge crush a pair of plyers and of course the apple as well. He did this at Sr Nat's in VA Beach some four or five years ago so he can still do that.

Weight lifting doesn't correlate to "strongest wrestler". This, to me, means a guy that is strongest when competing when wrestling. I'm not sure if that was the original posters implications however... JMO.

 

I enjoy hearing all of the stories. All measures of strength apply. It's funny to me how based on the comments, one would think that someone was either strong in the weight room or strong on the wrestling mat. It's like you can't be both, lol. I've known plenty of wrestlers that were incredibly strong in the weight room and incredibly strong on the mat.

 

Someone brought up earlier the fact that some wrestlers were very successful, despite never being very strong. I don't think this is nearly as factual as it is romanticized, but I do know of a few cases. I know a wrestler who wasn't very strong at all in high school, but was so flexible, quick and agile that he was able to beat a lot of others who were far stronger than he was.

 

Strength to me is very fascinating in relations to wrestling because it seems to be that guys don't seem to want to accredit it or those were were very good because of it. They want to attribute technique, quickness and conditioning far more than they ever do strength. If someone has superior technique, we call them a great wrestler and praise their skills. If someone is successful based on their ability to overpower, we undermine the fact.

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sure modern top players --in general -- are stronger in some things that can be measured, like wt lifting. However there are certainly exceptions, that is why they are legends

 

HR balls that have been measured tell us Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Hank Greenburg and Jimmy Fox and Harmon Killebrew and Frank Howard among others could hit the baseball as far as even the strongest modern (steroid) players.

 

Bob Feller was the first pitcher, in the 1940's, to be measured at 100 mph, though others like Walter Johnson perhaps could do it too. The famed Steve Carlton slider?? he developed his strength by puting a baseball in a barrell full of rice then burrowing in to pull it out. U wanna talk grip-strength?

 

Russ Hellickson was ox-strong, he told me about his own self-developed training methods, pick up a boulder, run with it 20 yards, put it down, pick it up again run back 20 yards, do this drill until u almost drop.

 

Bob, when I was a kid, my buddy and I went to a Columbus Jets game, taking a bus to the west side of Columbus, Ohio. On the opposing baseball team was a guy named Luke Easter. (I'm sure you know of him.) Playing AAA baseball at this point, he had to be well into his 40's, and that game he hit two of the longest home runs I've ever seen in my life.

 

During the flight of the first ball, the park was almost silent, as if everyone was witnessing something special, and they were too engrossed in what they were seeing to talk. I can still remember seeing both those balls flying impossibly high over the right field fence.

 

Easter started out in the Negro Leagues, and he began his major league career in 1949 with the Cleveland Indians- the year after they won the World Series. His last major league season, still with the Tribe- was in 1954- the year they made it to the World Series again, only to lose in four straight to San Francisco and Will Mays, who had the most famous catch in major league history.

 

Here's the wiki entry on Easter:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Easter_(baseball)

 

"When told by a fan one time that the fan had seen Easter's longest home run in person, Easter is reported to have replied, 'If it came down, it wasn't my longest.'"

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I'm not sure why people are piling on olddirty.

 

I would be very surprised if someone who did not train specifically for strength development was in the top 100 strongest wrestlers of all time. I would also be surprised if less than 3/4 of the top 100 weren't wrestlers from the 1980s and up.

 

I can't think of any sport, let alone a sport like wrestling in which strength is such an important part of conditioning, for which the average athletes have not gotten stronger and the top athletes substantially stronger every decade since the 1960s or even earlier. We're probably just now starting to hit the point of diminishing returns from all the advances in and widespread popularity of strength training.

 

The grip muscles, along with the neck, are probably the most undertrained muscles of all, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hodge was top 5 of all time as far as grip strength is concerned. But in terms of absolute general physical strength, there is no way that a guy from Hodge's era would rank among the strongest of all time. There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts.

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As far as some of your points wouldn't you say the improved knowledge base (especially in regard to technique in particular) lead to some of the improvements over time?

 

I absolutely agree 100%, but like I said earlier, the thread was title "strongest wrestler," not "wrestler who could have been the strongest."

 

Since everyone is calling me ignorant, disrespectful, and jaded, lets look at what we actually know about Dan Hodge in terms of strength.

 

He could squeeze apples and pliers very hard.

Other athletes of his era said he was strong.

He worked on an oil rig when he was a teenager.

That might be enough for you to call him the strongest of all time. Based on that, you have your right to call me ignorant for that not being enough to sway me.

 

Now, what leads me to believe he was not one of the strongest of all time:

He was not a full time Olympic athlete.

He did not use progressive strength training methods.

Athletes in his era access to the most efficient strength training tools.

Athletes in his era did not have access to modern science or coaches in regards to strength training.

Athletes in his era did not have access to nutritional science and recovery aids that promote maximum training recovery and tissue repair, which makes athletes stronger.

Athletes have gotten progressively stronger in every Olympic sport that measures strength.

Sport specific strength training is superior to seasonal manual labor in regards to building stronger Olympic athletes.

 

Looking at the two sides of the facts, am I that ignorant, stupid, or jaded to think that there are wrestlers of today's era who are stronger than Hodge was? He was a great wrestler and I like hearing stories about him, but squeezing apples and 3rd person tales isnt enough for me to say he is stronger than the Brock Lesnars, Karelin's and Mark Schultz's of modern times.

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"Bob, when I was a kid, my buddy and I went to a Columbus Jets game, taking a bus to the west side of Columbus, Ohio. On the opposing baseball team was a guy named Luke Easter. (I'm sure you know of him.) Playing AAA baseball at this point, he had to be well into his 40's, and that game he hit two of the longest home runs I've ever seen in my life."

 

TOSU, glad u mentioned LUKE EASTER-- what u saw in AAA Columbus was for REAL. Easter hit the longest ball in the history of Clevelands old Municpal Stadium. How do i know? no ball ever was hit out of old Muni stadium, though many greats played there, Mantle included. But Easter came the closest. A seat in the farthest reaches of the upper deck right centerfield was actually painted a different color to designate it, u could look up there and see where Easter had poked that ball on the fly almost out of the stadium-- i estimate would have been perhaps 600 feet HR if had been hit a bit more to center where it would have sailed clear thru.

 

Easter was murdered up here in Cleveland long after his playing days, in a robbery attempt, he was coming out of a bank after cashing checks for friends on payday. A city park is named after him.

 

u bring up a point i tried to make in a previous post. Easter played prime years in the old Negro League, how many Hall of Famers caliber played there? many i am sure. ...s/BobP

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I had the joy of wrestling Sean Gray and Hunter Meys everyday at BU, and Austin at ATWA when I visited home. Mike Roberts was stronger than any of them p4p though.

 

Brandon Slay, Sammie Henson, Justin Lester, Henry Cejudo...all insane strength

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sure modern top players --in general -- are stronger in some things that can be measured, like wt lifting. However there are certainly exceptions, that is why they are legends

 

HR balls that have been measured tell us Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle and Hank Greenburg and Jimmy Fox and Harmon Killebrew and Frank Howard among others could hit the baseball as far as even the strongest modern (steroid) players.

 

Bob Feller was the first pitcher, in the 1940's, to be measured at 100 mph, though others like Walter Johnson perhaps could do it too. The famed Steve Carlton slider?? he developed his strength by puting a baseball in a bucket or barrell full of sand then burrowing in to pull it out. U wanna talk grip-strength

 

The three most important factors in hitting a ball far are mass, bat speed, and timing. Ball compostition has more to do with homerun distance than Muscular strength.

 

As for pitching speed, again, muscular strength is not one of the key factors. Force, torque, and angular/linear velocities are what makes pitchers throw fast, not arm strength. It is peculiar that you brought pitching speed up as an example, as the top 20 fastest radars have happened within the last 15 years or so, minus The Express

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depends how u define "strength", your welcome to your definition --

 

in this thread i defined it in baseball as ability to hit the ball the farthest, which the old timers i named could do. Ruth hit a beat up ball too, and Feller & Walter Johnson & Dizzy Dean pitched with same. The modern baseball is "juiced" too, not just some of the players.

 

in golf, no one on tour hit as far as Jack Nicklaus in his day, thats how i define strength-- now with game-changing improvement in balls and clubs others hit it that far. Many other sports have similar examples.

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"Bob, when I was a kid, my buddy and I went to a Columbus Jets game, taking a bus to the west side of Columbus, Ohio. On the opposing baseball team was a guy named Luke Easter. (I'm sure you know of him.) Playing AAA baseball at this point, he had to be well into his 40's, and that game he hit two of the longest home runs I've ever seen in my life."

 

TOSU, glad u mentioned LUKE EASTER-- what u saw in AAA Columbus was for REAL. Easter hit the longest ball in the history of Clevelands old Municpal Stadium. How do i know? no ball ever was hit out of old Muni stadium, though many greats played there, Mantle included. But Easter came the closest. A seat in the farthest reaches of the upper deck right centerfield was actually painted a different color to designate it, u could look up there and see where Easter had poked that ball on the fly almost out of the stadium-- i estimate would have been perhaps 600 feet HR if had been hit a bit more to center where it would have sailed clear thru.

 

Easter was murdered up here in Cleveland long after his playing days, in a robbery attempt, he was coming out of a bank after cashing checks for friends on payday. A city park is named after him.

 

u bring up a point i tried to make in a previous post. Easter played prime years in the old Negro League, how many Hall of Famers caliber played there? many i am sure. ...s/BobP

 

Luke Easter played for the Rochester (NY) Red Wings in the twilight of his baseball career...Make a long story short...In the early 60's, our little neighborhood (a suburb of Rochester)knew him to be a celebrity but a regular nice guy...He was enjoying the friendship of a neighbors mother...We only knew him as Luke Easter "baseball player"...Got several autographs, played catch and I never realized until years later, why he actually visited there ;)

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I'm not sure why people are piling on olddirty.

There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts.

 

Wrong. Paul Anderson, born in 1932- like Dan Hodge, would destroy every one of today's wrestlers in a power lifting contest, with everyone competing in their prime.

 

Not most of them. All of them.

 

You could throw in Olympic lifting, too. He was an Olympic gold medalist in 1956.

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it is convenient that you picked someone that lifted in a weightclass that wrestling doesn't support anymore. anderson's record weights would have placed him 18th in his weightclass at the 2012 olympic games 98kg out of the medals and 103kg off the gold medal lifts.

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I'm not sure why people are piling on olddirty.

There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts.

 

Wrong. Paul Anderson, born in 1932- like Dan Hodge, would destroy every one of today's wrestlers in a power lifting contest, with everyone competing in their prime.

 

Not most of them. All of them.

 

You could throw in Olympic lifting, too. He was an Olympic gold medalist in 1956.

 

Olympic weightlifiting

 

done in official competition[1][6]

 

Clean and press: 185.5 kg (408.5 lbs) on 1955-10-16, in Munich at the 1955 World Championships

Snatch: 152.5 kg (335 lbs) on 1956-06-02 in Philadelphia at the 1956 Senior Nationals

Clean and jerk: 199.5 kg (440 lbs) on 1956-06-02 in Philadelphia at the 1956 Senior Nationals

Total: 533.5 kg (181.5/152.5/199.5) / (1175 lbs (400/335 /440) (clean and press + snatch + clean and jerk) on 1956-06-02 in Philadelphia at the 1956 Senior Nationals

 

Unofficial lifts

 

Lift included in the Guinness Book of World Records

 

Backlift: 6,270 lb (2,840 kg) (weight raised slightly off trestles; done June 12, 1957, in Toccoa, Georgia)[1]

 

→ listed as the greatest weight ever lifted by a human being[1]

 

CURRENT WORLD RECORD:

 

As of the Athens 2004 Summer Olympics, the official world record for the Men's Clean and Jerk, in the 105kg+ category, is 263.5 kilograms (581 lb). This record was set by Hossein Rezazadeh of Iran.[3]

 

 

That's Impressive stuff for sure for the guy who was competing in the 1950s, and plus Anderson was apparently a powerlifter who did not concentrate on the clean and jerk or other 'Olympic' lifts. He was all about the bench press, deadlift, and squat like today's powerlifters are.

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it is convenient that you picked someone that lifted in a weightclass that wrestling doesn't support anymore. anderson's record weights would have placed him 18th in his weightclass at the 2012 olympic games 98kg out of the medals and 103kg off the gold medal lifts.

 

I was responding to the statement that today's wrestlers would beat the powerlifters from Hodge's era. Anderson's Olympic lifts were excellent, and they were done with minimal training- and drug free. No one from the 2012 Olympics was drug free.

 

But Anderson's forte was powerlifting, and if he had the same advantages as today's powerlifters, he would have deadlifted earth and benched the moon.

 

With a t-shirt, of course- otherwise he would have benched earth, too.

 

No wrestler has ever come close to his powerlifting numbers. Maybe some wrestler wearing a cape and pointed shoes...

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it is convenient that you picked someone that lifted in a weightclass that wrestling doesn't support anymore. anderson's record weights would have placed him 18th in his weightclass at the 2012 olympic games 98kg out of the medals and 103kg off the gold medal lifts.

 

I was responding to the statement that today's wrestlers would beat the powerlifters from Hodge's era. Anderson's Olympic lifts were excellent, and they were done with minimal training- and drug free. No one from the 2012 Olympics was drug free.

 

But Anderson's forte was powerlifting, and if he had the same advantages as today's powerlifters, he would have deadlifted earth and benched the moon.

 

With a t-shirt, of course- otherwise he would have benched earth, too.

 

No wrestler has ever come close to his powerlifting numbers. Maybe some wrestler wearing a cape and pointed shoes...

 

ok so you are on the side of athletes today being stronger due to a plethora of advantages.

 

i would agree with you on the wrestlers matching the raw numbers because he was so big. however when you take body percentages i would be willing to bet that there are several lightweights wrestling in college right now that get close to his numbers.

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Anderson posted a lot of big numbers at 5' 9" and 275. Pick a wrestling heavy lifting anywhere near his numbers. Who's your pick?

 

And Anderson is only one example. There were a lot of strong powerlifters from the 1950's that would dominate today's wrestlers.

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if you read the articles on anderson his best lifts came over 300lbs and as heavy as 340+. are you telling me there aren't wrestlers benching double their weight? i conceded the raw number was going to be tough to match. the build of a successful 285lb powerlifter is much different than a successful 285lb wrestler. your shorter 285s dont get heavy enough to challenge anderson's raw numbers. when its broken down pound for pound many of today's wrestlers challenge and beat his numbers.

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if you read the articles on anderson his best lifts came over 300lbs and as heavy as 340+. are you telling me there aren't wrestlers benching double their weight? i conceded the raw number was going to be tough to match. the build of a successful 285lb powerlifter is much different than a successful 285lb wrestler. your shorter 285s dont get heavy enough to challenge anderson's raw numbers. when its broken down pound for pound many of today's wrestlers challenge and beat his numbers.

 

There are plenty of little guys benching double their weight. Few big guys. Doesn't prove a thing.

 

Let's get back to wrestlingnerd's original statement: "There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts."

 

OK, I offered Paul Anderson, because he was the best powerlifter from Hodge's era. No mention of weight.

 

I could offer Bob Peoples, who deadlifted 725 at 181 lbs. in 1949. Who's your wrestler?

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if you read the articles on anderson his best lifts came over 300lbs and as heavy as 340+. are you telling me there aren't wrestlers benching double their weight? i conceded the raw number was going to be tough to match. the build of a successful 285lb powerlifter is much different than a successful 285lb wrestler. your shorter 285s dont get heavy enough to challenge anderson's raw numbers. when its broken down pound for pound many of today's wrestlers challenge and beat his numbers.

 

There are plenty of little guys benching double their weight. Few big guys. Doesn't prove a thing.

 

Let's get back to wrestlingnerd's original statement: "There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts."

 

OK, I offered Paul Anderson, because he was the best powerlifter from Hodge's era. No mention of weight.

 

I could offer Bob Peoples, who deadlifted 725 at 181 lbs. in 1949. Who's your wrestler?

 

i didnt make the statement and you could cherry-pick numbers on both sides of the argument when comparing powerlifters of the 50's to todays wrestlers. the one thing that is clear in the argument is that today's athletes are much stronger than the 50's.

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if you read the articles on anderson his best lifts came over 300lbs and as heavy as 340+. are you telling me there aren't wrestlers benching double their weight? i conceded the raw number was going to be tough to match. the build of a successful 285lb powerlifter is much different than a successful 285lb wrestler. your shorter 285s dont get heavy enough to challenge anderson's raw numbers. when its broken down pound for pound many of today's wrestlers challenge and beat his numbers.

 

There are plenty of little guys benching double their weight. Few big guys. Doesn't prove a thing.

 

Let's get back to wrestlingnerd's original statement: "There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts."

 

OK, I offered Paul Anderson, because he was the best powerlifter from Hodge's era. No mention of weight.

 

I could offer Bob Peoples, who deadlifted 725 at 181 lbs. in 1949. Who's your wrestler?

The Bulgarian "Pocket Hercules" was, and may still be, the only one ever to have put more than three times his weight overhead. 190kg clean and jerk in the 60kg wt class, and 170.5kg in 56kg wt.

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if you read the articles on anderson his best lifts came over 300lbs and as heavy as 340+. are you telling me there aren't wrestlers benching double their weight? i conceded the raw number was going to be tough to match. the build of a successful 285lb powerlifter is much different than a successful 285lb wrestler. your shorter 285s dont get heavy enough to challenge anderson's raw numbers. when its broken down pound for pound many of today's wrestlers challenge and beat his numbers.

 

There are plenty of little guys benching double their weight. Few big guys. Doesn't prove a thing.

 

Let's get back to wrestlingnerd's original statement: "There are wrestlers today that would destroy the best powerlifters of Hodge's era in a powerlifting contest, and wrestlers don't even specialize in the powerlifts."

 

OK, I offered Paul Anderson, because he was the best powerlifter from Hodge's era. No mention of weight.

 

I could offer Bob Peoples, who deadlifted 725 at 181 lbs. in 1949. Who's your wrestler?

 

i didnt make the statement and you could cherry-pick numbers on both sides of the argument when comparing powerlifters of the 50's to todays wrestlers. the one thing that is clear in the argument is that today's athletes are much stronger than the 50's.

 

I don't know where the figure comes from for Peoples, but below is a link for modern powerlifting records. The current record at that weight is 794 pounds, so there hasn't been nearly as much improvement in powerlifting as there has been in Olympic lifting. Not sure why.

 

http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records

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Just watched some silly show on TV a few minutes ago... a young blonde was saying that the Loch Ness Monster must have been real - because they didn't have Photoshop back then, so they couldn't edit photos.

 

Reminded me of this silly thread.

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