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let's guess how long Spencer Lee can be inactive and stay #1...

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1 hour ago, Le duke said:


There are two people that can be five timers. Spencer Lee is not one of them.


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I thought that 2020 did not count as a "year" for anyone. You are saying that it did count-- but not for freshmen. If that's right, don't see the logic.

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24 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Gotcha. But if he wrestles this weekend....

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It's gonna be hard to make a good argument for him the longer he is off the mat. What better time then now. Otherwise he will never be where most think he should be.

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56 minutes ago, unbiased said:

It's gonna be hard to make a good argument for him the longer he is off the mat. What better time then now. Otherwise he will never be where most think he should be.

Gotcha.  If he comes back this weekend and beats whatever warm body Iowa State throws out there, he could catch Stieber.  If he doesn't, he's done.  He needs this skin on his wall.

Edited by VakAttack

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3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Gotcha.  If he comes back this weekend and beats whatever warm body Iowa State throws out there, he could catch Stieber.  If he doesn't, he's done.  He needs this skin on his wall.

I think you know what I meant but are having a hard time letting it go. Let it go man, let it go.

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2 hours ago, NJDan said:

I thought that 2020 did not count as a "year" for anyone. You are saying that it did count-- but not for freshmen. If that's right, don't see the logic.

Last year didn't count for anyone, but that is not what prevents Brooks from being a 5 timer. 

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Vak you gotta be joking.  Spencer has a win % of 93.8, which is very poor when compared to this cohort but even more so inferior when it is known that he has intentionally ducked about half of his matches against top 5 competition his last 2 years.

Career losses to Bresser, Piccinini and Rivera (multiple) who are all solid, but unimpressive relative to Stieber's losses, Cael's (duh) and Smiths.  Perhaps you can argue Dake's losses are comparable but then Dake sought out a goat -- Dake ran to Taylor, Spencer ducked Patrick Glory 3(3!) consecutive times, but but but he beat him by major 27 months ago!

Spencer also gives up a ton of pathetic looking takedowns when he goes into iron lung mode about midway through the second period.  

Outside of an Iowa homer that prefers to come off as Ralph Wiggum there is no argument here.  Dumb thread.  He is not an all time great, not even close.  

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22 minutes ago, Class said:

Vak you gotta be joking.  Spencer has a win % of 93.8, which is very poor when compared to this cohort but even more so inferior when it is known that he has intentionally ducked about half of his matches against top 5 competition his last 2 years.

Career losses to Bresser, Piccinini and Rivera (multiple) who are all solid, but unimpressive relative to Stieber's losses, Cael's (duh) and Smiths.  Perhaps you can argue Dake's losses are comparable but then Dake sought out a goat -- Dake ran to Taylor, Spencer ducked Patrick Glory 3(3!) consecutive times, but but but he beat him by major 27 months ago!

Spencer also gives up a ton of pathetic looking takedowns when he goes into iron lung mode about midway through the second period.  

Outside of an Iowa homer that prefers to come off as Ralph Wiggum there is no argument here.  Dumb thread.  He is not an all time great, not even close.  

Not bad points, but they need a more nuance because Spencer wrestled as a true freshman. You leave out that Stieber took 3 straight losses at vegas, all 3 worse than any of spencer's losses, his true freshman year that were wiped off his official record because he ended up getting the year back due to a medical redshirt. So that puts him at the same number of losses with worse quality than Lee. Pat Smith had 5 losses, in addition to 2 ties. They didn't keep great records back then, so I can't tell you who he lost to and how they compare to Lee's. Even Cael lost to Paul Jenn his true freshman year which is a way worse loss than anything Spencer took.

In essence, you're punishing Lee for taking on the challenge of wrestling as a true freshman instead of redshirting. Why would you count the Bresser loss at midlands before Lee even came out of redshirt, but not the 3 losses at vegas for steiber when he was wrestling attached for osu? If you're going to rely heavily on things like win %, you need to include all matches wrestled during college imo.

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2 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Not bad points, but they need a more nuance because Spencer wrestled as a true freshman. You leave out that Stieber took 3 straight losses at vegas, all 3 worse than any of spencer's losses, his true freshman year that were wiped off his official record because he ended up getting the year back due to a medical redshirt. So that puts him at the same number of losses with worse quality than Lee. Pat Smith had 5 losses, in addition to 2 ties. They didn't keep great records back then, so I can't tell you who he lost to and how they compare to Lee's. Even Cael lost to Paul Jenn his true freshman year which is a way worse loss than anything Spencer took.

In essence, you're punishing Lee for taking on the challenge of wrestling as a true freshman instead of redshirting. Why would you count the Bresser loss at midlands before Lee even came out of redshirt, but not the 3 losses at vegas for steiber when he was wrestling attached for osu? If you're going to rely heavily on things like win %, you need to include all matches wrestled during college imo.

Fair points but then you seem to give Lee a pass on missing many, many quality opponents by choice.  If Stieber's (and others) losses are minimized due to taking a redshirt I believe quite firmly that Spencer has minimized his losses by simple competition avoidance spanning multiple years.  I believe that outside of big tens and nationals Spencer has actually wrestled in only 2 complete tournaments, the UNI open and Midlands, obviously losing in the 2nd one.  This allowed him to handpick the duals, and ultimately wrestlers, he competes with prior to the post season.  His career is literally the poster child for what is ailing college wrestling right now.  Top competitors having 0 incentive to compete with one another.

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4 hours ago, NJDan said:

I thought that 2020 did not count as a "year" for anyone. You are saying that it did count-- but not for freshmen. If that's right, don't see the logic.

I think many agree with you, but this was an argument that was had when it was announced that athletes that competed in 2019-2020 would not get an extra year of eligibility, but those that competed in 2020-2021 would.

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29 minutes ago, Class said:

 He is not an all time great, not even close.  

LOL.

 

21 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

thank god unbiased mispoke slightly, you almost had to make a real argument

He said this "I don't see Spencer above Stieber unless he comes back this weekend and goes undefeated."  It makes no sense.  Either way, we're having a debate that hasn't happened yet.  You're trying to put things into a context that can't be placed there, since Spencer hasn't done it yet.  The debate is entirely hypothetical, so I haven't engaged in thinking about it.  Nothing wrong with you and others wanting to, I'm not saying you can't do that or even mocking you for engaging in the hypothetical, I'm mocking silly statements made within the context, like that one by unbiased or the one above from Class.

Lets engage in the hypothetical, though, I suppose.  Right now, Spencer Lee has 76 career points scored at the NCAA tournament.  If he never wrestles another collegiate match, that puts him on par with the 4 year careers of guys like Gabe Dean, Mike Sheets, Tomasello, Troy Steiner, Kenny Monday, etc.  If he matches last year (with no ACLs), he will be 4th.  In the entire history of the NCAA.  In a sport that has made it increasingly clear that the only thing that it cares about is this one tournament.  And he will have done that while wrestling as a true freshman (which Logan did not) and did not need any questionable officiating to win any of his titles (a subjective factor, but the whole debate is subjective by its nature) while being very injured during parts of that journey.

We're all shifting criteria to make our own arguments here.  People will cite the wins over Zain (while eliding over the loss), even though Zain clearly was not what he would become.  Stieber's actual best wins were probably over Ramos and Oliver (if we ignore the subjective officiating issues with the Oliver match).  I think most people would probably put Dake above Stieber (I know I would) despite Stieber having more tournament points scored than anybody besides Cael.  Except for Spencer's junior season, I think he's had deeper fields thusfar than what Logan faced, and the fact that Spencer did it without a redshirt make it more impressive to me...if he actually does it.

I do find it humorous the sudden focus on raw career wins and win percentage.  Outside of Cael's 159, I couldn't tell you how many matches another NCAA wrestler won in his career except for maybe Metcalf, and I'd bet most of you are the same way.

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15 minutes ago, Class said:

Fair points but then you seem to give Lee a pass on missing many, many quality opponents by choice.  If Stieber's (and others) losses are minimized due to taking a redshirt I believe quite firmly that Spencer has minimized his losses by simple competition avoidance spanning multiple years.  I believe that outside of big tens and nationals Spencer has actually wrestled in only 2 complete tournaments, the UNI open and Midlands, obviously losing in the 2nd one.  This allowed him to handpick the duals, and ultimately wrestlers, he competes with prior to the post season.  His career is literally the poster child for what is ailing college wrestling right now.  Top competitors having 0 incentive to compete with one another.

Actually I think he competed in 2 full Midlands tournaments, losing to Bresser in one and Rivera in the other.  So quick edit he has been in 3 tournaments prior to post season, which probably isn't all that noteworthy in this day and age as a lot of teams only schedule 1 or 2 a year.

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54 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Even tho there was no tournament that year?

To be clear, EVERYONE that wrestled attached had 2019 count against their eligibility.  As an effort to soften that blow, the NCAA made 2020 a free year.  So, that hurt guys like  Pletcher, Lugo, Joseph, Hall and Moore who graduated in 2019 and didn't come back for that year, but it essentially gave the 2019 year back to everyone else.

Now, any freshman that didn't wrestle in 2019, has the benefit of counting 2020 as year zero and that is why they have a chance at 5 years.  So , Brooks only has 3 more chances since he wrestled in 2019, even though he was considered a freshman in 2020...

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On 12/2/2021 at 2:45 PM, 1032004 said:

I think many agree with you, but this was an argument that was had when it was announced that athletes that competed in 2019-2020 would not get an extra year of eligibility, but those that competed in 2020-2021 would.

Aha, I get it. Spencer has wrestled 4 years, 3 of which counted (2019-2020 did count, but 2020-21 did not). This seems backward since they count the year with no tournament, but not the year that had a tournament. But if you say that's the way it is, I believe you. 

Edited by NJDan

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22 minutes ago, Class said:

Fair points but then you seem to give Lee a pass on missing many, many quality opponents by choice.  If Stieber's (and others) losses are minimized due to taking a redshirt I believe quite firmly that Spencer has minimized his losses by simple competition avoidance spanning multiple years.  I believe that outside of big tens and nationals Spencer has actually wrestled in only 2 complete tournaments, the UNI open and Midlands, obviously losing in the 2nd one.  This allowed him to handpick the duals, and ultimately wrestlers, he competes with prior to the post season.  His career is literally the poster child for what is ailing college wrestling right now.  Top competitors having 0 incentive to compete with one another.

You could say that a redshirt year is the ultimate duck. In essence, you are ducking the field for a whole year and doing it when you are at your weakest.

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How about a pretty clear and unbiased indicator of greatness.  Opponents offensive points allowed.  Uetake never gave one up from tales of his legend and many consider him the greatest ever because of it.

I would make a wager that Spencer already has given up more takedowns than Dake, Stieber and Cael combined, and it probably isn't close, and he has significantly less matches than all of them.

Heck, in his last NCAA tourney, which had his 2 best competitors removed because the EIWA sat out, he surrendered takedowns to Cardinale and Shroeder.

He isn't an all time great.  Not even close.

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