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let's guess how long Spencer Lee can be inactive and stay #1...

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3 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Wait...Did you just use a common sense argument literally citing an example of a PSU wrestler doing nearly the same thing?  Mind blown!

every time i reply to him i feel a little dirty because he's a bad faith poster, but this was just so obviously stupid i felt compelled. 

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1 hour ago, Class said:

Hypothetically Stieber and above since that is the crux of the argument.

Ncaa placement/Win %/Quality of Competition/Details of Losses/Opponent offense surrendered/career record

Lee matches him on the 1st one (assuming a 4th this year).  The rest are all clearly in Stieber's court.

If you factor the other items as much as NCAA placement then guys like Zain, Gable, Nickal, Nolf, Askren and Taylor have valid arguments.  the real old timers like Tom Brands, Gable, Kemp, Uetake, etc. are just before my time.  Recency bias is always alive and well.

 

1 hour ago, Class said:

Interestingly if he happens to not win this year and goes into comparisons with other 3 time champs there will be many put in front of him.  However, if he wins his 4th then his is in that small group of 4 timers and obviously many here think he could be a solid 3rd, or 4th.

Pressure is on.  Either way if Suriano, Vito and Glory are all there he will either firmly cement himself or have his legacy hit as mentioned above.  The drama will be amazing.  The 2nd half of this season is really going to be fantastic for many reasons.

Obviously this whole conversation is assuming he wins NCAA"s this year.   If he doesn't then no he's not an all-time great.   There is no way you can put any 3x'er that competed in 4 tournaments above him (Steveson will only be a 2x'er BTW).   Old timers that only had 3 tournaments like Uetake (and Lee has admitted as much) sure.  

But assuming that, I think I put him ahead of Stieber due to his dominance and Stieber's controversial win over Oliver.   As uncle bernard alluded to, I think I'd put dominance/bonus rate ahead of "opponent offense surrendered."

You're also acting like Lee's had a ton of losses.   He has 5, all of which came in his first 2 seasons including 2 as a true freshman.  Bresser is really the only "bad" one and that was in his second ever college tournament while he was technically in redshirt.

The rest of his losses are to: NATO (national champ who he beat twice including once by fall), Rivera 2x who he also beat twice, and Picc who he beat 3x including once by fall.

Not to mention he has beaten two national champs in NATO and Suriano, so despite his ducking I'm not sure he'd be behind Stieber on "quality of competition."

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1 hour ago, wrestlingphish said:

That’s because he was still in redshirt and they needed to see how the knee held up. If he wrestled in the dual his redshirt is gone. He competed unattached at the UNI Open preserving his redshirt.

 

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

can you read? i never suggested he wasn't ready. they hadn't decided if he was going to redshirt or not. the common view heading into that year was that they weren't good enough to win a title with him, so why not save his eligibility for a year when they would be? the acl recovery keeping him off the mat until november added more weight to this view. it was a surprise when they pulled him.

it's like asking why cael held mark hall out against jim wilson and ryan preisch while he was clearly "ready" because he was wrestling opens. because they hadn't decided to use him yet. any person with common sense could figure that out.

In the words of the great wrestling mind NJDan...

 

2 hours ago, NJDan said:

You could say that a redshirt year is the ultimate duck. In essence, you are ducking the field for a whole year and doing it when you are at your weakest.

 

Here is the bottom line for me. Sure, they were deciding on whether he'd wrestle or not that year, but that is what a pitch count is. A coaching decision. Could be short term, could be longer term. But the bottom line is he was held out vs Suriano there and then later held out multiple times vs Glory. He's missing the matches where the other wrestler is conceivably good enough to beat him. So they hold him back. 

Also, he will still have the 5 years and less than 90 wins thing compared to other guys who won an average of about 125 times. Significant. 

Mark Hall isn't being offered for consideration as among the best of the best of all time. His freshman year is of no consequence here.  

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17 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

 

In the words of the great wrestling mind NJDan...

 

 

Here is the bottom line for me. Sure, they were deciding on whether he'd wrestle or not that year, but that is what a pitch count is. A coaching decision. Could be short term, could be longer term. But the bottom line is he was held out vs Suriano there and then later held out multiple times vs Glory. He's missing the matches where the other wrestler is conceivably good enough to beat him. So they hold him back. 

Also, he will still have the 5 years and less than 90 wins thing compared to other guys who won an average of about 125 times. Significant. 

Mark Hall isn't being offered for consideration as among the best of the best of all time. His freshman year is of no consequence here.  

So you agree that Mark Hall was also “held out” of the matches before his redshirt was pulled?

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12 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So you agree that Mark Hall was also “held out” of the matches before his redshirt was pulled?

The decision to redshirt or not redshirt, coaches make that for different reasons obviously than how fans look at it when comparing wrestlers. Regardless, if two fans are arguing the record of different wrestlers, it matters who that wrestler beat and what the level of their competition was. Spencer's was not as high as the other 4 timers. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

The decision to redshirt or not redshirt, coaches make that for different reasons obviously than how fans look at it when comparing wrestlers. Regardless, if two fans are arguing the record of different wrestlers, it matters who that wrestler beat and what the level of their competition was. Spencer's was not as high as the other 4 timers. 

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9 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

"Redshirting is a pitch count and trying to duck opponents.

"Haven't every major Penn State wrestler redshirted during their careers?"

"Listen, coaches redshirt for many different reasons."

Internetting 101. Lol.

Lee is still 5th, btw. Sorry. 

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

Thank God they've appointed you arbiter of these things.

This is the kind of response someone makes when the arguments are all made and they have not persuaded someone else to just change their mind. I am the arbiter of only my point of view, one which is shared by several others you have argued with in this thread. 

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This is the kind of response someone makes when the arguments are all made and they have not persuaded someone else to just change their mind. I am the arbiter of only my point of view, one which is shared by several others you have argued with in this thread. 
You didn't make an argument in your post, you just restated something you've already said, Obi Wan Jabronie. You wanting me to make another argument to counteract you saying "Lee is still fifth" as if it was some kind of kill shot point is amazing.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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8 hours ago, VakAttack said:

You didn't make an argument in your post, you just restated something you've already said, Obi Wan Jabronie. You wanting me to make another argument to counteract you saying "Lee is still fifth" as if it was some kind of kill shot point is amazing.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

He'll be sixth.

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22 hours ago, Class said:

No argument here.  Dake was boring and had he not gone up to 165 and been so successful post collegiately his legacy would be perhaps par with Pat Smith.

David Taylor, Nolf and Logan Stieber were amazing point scorers with Stieber being similar in the top position.

Heading down a rabbit hole here,  however Smith was just 18 when he first won Nationals. Dake had just turned 19 the month before, Sanderson was 3 months from 20, and Stieber was 21 years old. 

Just wanted to remind folks just how mature a young Pat Smith really was. History doesn't treat him as kindly as they should...he wasn't on any World or Olympic Teams, but very dominant in collegiate. But the kid was dynamite.

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2 hours ago, BadgerMon said:

Heading down a rabbit hole here,  however Smith was just 18 when he first won Nationals. Dake had just turned 19 the month before, Sanderson was 3 months from 20, and Stieber was 21 years old. 

Just wanted to remind folks just how mature a young Pat Smith really was. History doesn't treat him as kindly as they should...he wasn't on any World or Olympic Teams, but very dominant in collegiate. But the kid was dynamite.

He was also in an era when the elite high schoolers were not usually comparable to college guys. I've never seen a break down, but I would be willing to bet the list of true freshmen ncaa champs skews wildly towards the present.

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1 minute ago, hammerlockthree said:

plus Lee just had a humiliating 6-3 win....Tbar why doesn't cael get his guys in shape?

does this impact cael's legacy as an all-time great coach? an unbiased objective criteria for a great coach is "offensive points scored" and Lee barely scored at all despite Cael being in the corner. much to consider.

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1 minute ago, uncle bernard said:

does this impact cael's legacy as an all-time great coach? an unbiased objective criteria for a great coach is "offensive points scored" and Lee barely scored at all despite Cael being in the corner. much to consider.

I could tell by the way that ferrante rode out Lee that he was definitely in Cael's head. Cael is gonna be sleeping on the couch for awhile cause I know Mrs. Sanderson doesn't take kindly to mat belly....

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On 12/2/2021 at 3:57 PM, Class said:

Cmon -- The most impressive thing about any wrestler is going through a season unscored upon.  It is so rare and an amazing accomplishment.

this is a totally arbitrary criteria you've chosen. i would say that consistently teching top 15 wrestlers in the first period is just as impressive, if not more. Is there another wrestler in history who does it as consistently?

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