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Underrated Aspects of Prominent wrestlers

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Well... not many football players.  Probably 1/3 of the NBA is under 200, 1/2 the MLB, 1/2 the NHL. 
Outside of the big 4 sports, most professional athletes are
He meant black people but let him off the hook he's clearly uncomfortable with it.

Just no money or fame in wrestling and who wants to chase 50k paydays when you can chase millions.

Heck most of the southeast quarter of the United States ( If youve been to Georgia, anywhere in Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana...etc....) Has professional athlete (NBA/NFL) looking sized bodies working in the mall, gas station, wherever....
But also there are limited wrestling resources in those areas.
So they play the sports available, chasing the stars and fortunes they see on tv. Which hinders wrestling development and ultimately keeps then from getting the full ride over the kid from Minnesota who has wrestled since he was 5 and has 45 matches a year for the previous 13 years.

It's fine . It's just reality

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I didn't mean what you are saying I did. I'm not going to dig a deeper hole and post more after this. But I was a D1 heavyweight so this isn't just a pop-up thought of mine. Football, rugby, baseball, basketball all the best walking at 6' or taller and are 200+ pounds. If they had a reason to choose wrestling then the US would constantly have a Russia problem where 5 of the top 10 in the world would be located in the US. I saw the athletes in other sports and wished they would have come to our sport instead of sticking to the traditional sports and the outcome is that for every Gable Steveson and Stephen Neal and Kyle Snyder, we have 800 Ray Lewis (state champ) and JT Realmutos and Garret Goebels and Russ Weils and Carlin Isles that are incentivized to chase even that fringe dream or a Danny Barret or Nate Ebner that probably never thought twice of leaving the field or pitch to try it out on the mat. Wrestling is a low-paying sport pushed for the little man that can't make the team on the traditional sports. Hell, look at the Iowa o-line - they pride themselves on their wrestling background but they sure as hell didn't have a reason to stick with the sport. That's all I meant. Sorry for what this has caused.

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48 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I didn't mean what you are saying I did. I'm not going to dig a deeper hole and post more after this. But I was a D1 heavyweight so this isn't just a pop-up thought of mine. Football, rugby, baseball, basketball all the best walking at 6' or taller and are 200+ pounds. If they had a reason to choose wrestling then the US would constantly have a Russia problem where 5 of the top 10 in the world would be located in the US. I saw the athletes in other sports and wished they would have come to our sport instead of sticking to the traditional sports and the outcome is that for every Gable Steveson and Stephen Neal and Kyle Snyder, we have 800 Ray Lewis (state champ) and JT Realmutos and Garret Goebels and Russ Weils and Carlin Isles that are incentivized to chase even that fringe dream or a Danny Barret or Nate Ebner that probably never thought twice of leaving the field or pitch to try it out on the mat. Wrestling is a low-paying sport pushed for the little man that can't make the team on the traditional sports. Hell, look at the Iowa o-line - they pride themselves on their wrestling background but they sure as hell didn't have a reason to stick with the sport. That's all I meant. Sorry for what this has caused.

But, couldn't it be argued we are at or near that state now?  I mean we have Gable, Gwiz, Parris, Cass, Kerkvliet, Coon and Schultz.   I would daresay our depth at HWT destroy every other country by a considerable margin!

Edited by MSU158

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36 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

I didn't mean what you are saying I did. I'm not going to dig a deeper hole and post more after this. But I was a D1 heavyweight so this isn't just a pop-up thought of mine. Football, rugby, baseball, basketball all the best walking at 6' or taller and are 200+ pounds. If they had a reason to choose wrestling then the US would constantly have a Russia problem where 5 of the top 10 in the world would be located in the US. I saw the athletes in other sports and wished they would have come to our sport instead of sticking to the traditional sports and the outcome is that for every Gable Steveson and Stephen Neal and Kyle Snyder, we have 800 Ray Lewis (state champ) and JT Realmutos and Garret Goebels and Russ Weils and Carlin Isles that are incentivized to chase even that fringe dream or a Danny Barret or Nate Ebner that probably never thought twice of leaving the field or pitch to try it out on the mat. Wrestling is a low-paying sport pushed for the little man that can't make the team on the traditional sports. Hell, look at the Iowa o-line - they pride themselves on their wrestling background but they sure as hell didn't have a reason to stick with the sport. That's all I meant. Sorry for what this has caused.

Yet internationally, Heavy is one of our most successful weight classes with Gable and the current crop of other NCAA heavies that have age group golds(Cass, Kerk, Paris, and Shultz).

I think after Big Bruce's dominant career the following all have had World medals: Neal, Tolly, McCoy, Dlagnev, Gwiz; add Rulon, Ghaffiri, Beyers, and Coon for Greco. To stretch it a bit you can add gold Medalists Snyder, Cox, and Varner who might have been able to get close to NFL if they had focused on bulking up. Every year we put one of the best heavyweight wrestlers on the planet on our national team.  Is the US talent pool of athleticism so deep that we would have dozens of guys that are playing football or basketball that are better than our currents guys and everyone else in the world?

 Where are all the tremendous 65kg athletes going?

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23 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Yet internationally, Heavy is one of our most successful weight classes with Gable and the current crop of other NCAA heavies that have age group golds(Cass, Kerk, Paris, and Shultz).

I think after Big Bruce's dominant career the following all have had World medals: Neal, Tolly, McCoy, Dlagnev, Gwiz; add Rulon, Ghaffiri, Beyers, and Coon for Greco. To stretch it a bit you can add gold Medalists Snyder, Cox, and Varner who might have been able to get close to NFL if they had focused on bulking up. Every year we put one of the best heavyweight wrestlers on the planet on our national team.  Is the US talent pool of athleticism so deep that we would have dozens of guys that are playing football or basketball that are better than our currents guys and everyone else in the world?

 Where are all the tremendous 65kg athletes going?

Reality is that the USA is very successful at wrestling, despite the self deprecation and sandbagging around here.

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Reality is that the USA is very successful at wrestling, despite the self deprecation and sandbagging around here.

Correct!  

@Jim L

Also correct. And that's kind of what I was saying . Of the hoards of guys that choose football over wrestling after HS.... It's usually not 9 of the top 10 wrestling guys.

It's 1x state champ from XYZ highschool currently ranked 22nd at heavy.

Not 3x state champ, cadet world medalist.....

The guys we have are super solid. And as I was saying there's a certain number of body types and only so many wrestling moves, so to speculate we'd do better with NFL players .... It's like what more do we want? We can only send 1 guy and we're consistently better than Russia at heavy. They should stop sending their big guys to.....

 

(The reason I said big black people@bnwtwg is because you chose like the 1 black heavyweight we've had in awhile and said something along the lines of "this is what happens when an athlete chooses wrestling over football" again I'm sorry if it wasn't what you meant but you're not wrong in that it'd be cool if more black people (or athletes) wrestled, but as is the difference of folk to free.... If you're not doing it the majority of your life it's hard to play catch-up against the elite

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Correct!  

@Jim L

Also correct. And that's kind of what I was saying . Of the hoards of guys that choose football over wrestling after HS.... It's usually not 9 of the top 10 wrestling guys.

It's 1x state champ from XYZ highschool currently ranked 22nd at heavy.

Not 3x state champ, cadet world medalist.....

The guys we have are super solid. And as I was saying there's a certain number of body types and only so many wrestling moves, so to speculate we'd do better with NFL players .... It's like what more do we want? We can only send 1 guy and we're consistently better than Russia at heavy. They should stop sending their big guys to.....

 

(The reason I said big black people@bnwtwg is because you chose like the 1 black heavyweight we've had in awhile and said something along the lines of "this is what happens when an athlete chooses wrestling over football" again I'm sorry if it wasn't what you meant but you're not wrong in that it'd be cool if more black people (or athletes) wrestled, but as is the difference of folk to free.... If you're not doing it the majority of your life it's hard to play catch-up against the elite

 

 

 

Steveson is simply the most recent champ and the example cited that kicked off this combo convo. What about Osa Odighizuwa who was a 2x Fargo champ/3x state champ and pursued football. Wiki says at his combine he measured 6'1 / 282. But he was lost to football and ultimately became a 3rd round pick. Would he have won olympic gold? Who knows... but that was my point. We lose larger competitors to other sports.

Edited by bnwtwg
autocorrect fail

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Steveson is simply the most recent champ and the example cited that kicked off this combo convo. What about Osa Odighizuwa who was a 2x Fargo champ/3x state champ and pursued football. Wiki says at his combine he measured 6'1 / 282. But he was lost to football and ultimately became a 3rd round pick. Would he have won olympic gold? Who knows... but that was my point. We lose larger competitors to other sports.
I'm sure he was tough and those are some great accomplishments. I just glanced at his last national title bracket(2015) and it leaves something to be desired.... Could he have become serviceable. Sure, would he have beat Gwiz or Gable.... Strong doubts.
Do I discount heavyweight highschool state championships? A bit....
Do I discount Oregon State championships.....
A bit... I guess maybe he could've become equal to our world medalists. But maybe not.

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1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

Correct!  

@Jim L

Also correct. And that's kind of what I was saying . Of the hoards of guys that choose football over wrestling after HS.... It's usually not 9 of the top 10 wrestling guys.

It's 1x state champ from XYZ highschool currently ranked 22nd at heavy.

Not 3x state champ, cadet world medalist.....

The guys we have are super solid. And as I was saying there's a certain number of body types and only so many wrestling moves, so to speculate we'd do better with NFL players .... It's like what more do we want? We can only send 1 guy and we're consistently better than Russia at heavy. They should stop sending their big guys to.....

 

(The reason I said big black people@bnwtwg is because you chose like the 1 black heavyweight we've had in awhile and said something along the lines of "this is what happens when an athlete chooses wrestling over football" again I'm sorry if it wasn't what you meant but you're not wrong in that it'd be cool if more black people (or athletes) wrestled, but as is the difference of folk to free.... If you're not doing it the majority of your life it's hard to play catch-up against the elite

 

 

 

I don't know how you latched onto this black narrative or why you are using a bi-racial person to do so, but Gable Steveson is > 250 lbs, does back flips when he is exhausted and is quick as a cat.  The guy is an athlete.  It is that simple.

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Not many people really seem to understand the caliber of physical athletes who are both over and under 200 pounds that are going into college DI bb and fb. 
 

Our current structure and culture incentives the best athletes to do fb and bb. To say or think otherwise is ignorant.
 

Wrestling is great because any one can use hard work to to well but the simple fact is that there is levels.
 

Also, while the mental game is very important. Sometimes mental game and determination isn’t enough to overcome physical disparities 

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Agree w/ Brands re technique. My little league coaches were OSU alumni, so I got all the stereotypical Cowboy stuff growing up, e.g. elbow control ducks, Tulsa rides, slap-belly stands/hip-heists, etc. 

When I moved to an area obsessed with Iowa-style short offense, I felt like/was treated like an idiot. Even after studying endless hours of film, I couldn't figure out how Brands was able to get the reactions he was getting from the "push pull ... snap him." E.g. why can't I sucker drag a Dresser dump and, conversely, why can't I Dresser dump when he tries to sucker drag me? So I gave up and just decided I was an idiot who happened to win a lot doing idiotic things. 

Only as an adult did I finally start to get the feel for their way of creating angles/reaction/pressure and sliding away from/redirecting  pressure via the inside control hand fight. I learned a lot from a vid on flo where Terry is sparring with Opan Sat(?). I still suck at it though.

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the stall fest rewards not wrestling...

a smart wrestler with limited athletic abilities can win national championships at the D1 level...

it happens all the time...

 

i watched one of our most decorated international wrestlers try to jump rope for about 30 minutes once...

it was horrifying...

 

this thread reads differently than you guys want it to... 

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Re athletes: pro fb players are superior at the stuff required to play football. They are not superior athletes  ... full stop. A 250 lbs mr fasttwitch linebacker is not going to be able to boulder or run a competitive marathon time or pedal a bicycle up a mountain or ollie over a trash can.

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Re race issue: *Here's something controversial that might get me booted from the board*

For a significant minority of the fanbase, pro and big time college football is a modern-day minstrel show. When it stops serving that purpose, this part of the fanbase threatens to boycott. 

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1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

Re athletes: pro fb players are superior at the stuff required to play football. They are not superior athletes  ... full stop. A 250 lbs mr fasttwitch linebacker is not going to be able to boulder or run a competitive marathon time or pedal a bicycle up a mountain or ollie over a trash can.

There is some false equivalency here.  There is plenty of overlap between HWT wrestlers and FB players.

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20 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

There is some false equivalency here.  There is plenty of overlap between HWT wrestlers and FB players.

No doubt, however a lot of the replies assume that there is something called "athleticism" that would make someone good at all sports given tbe proper training. Maybe no one is making this assumption. 

Edited by jackwebster

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3 hours ago, spladle08 said:

I'm sure he was tough and those are some great accomplishments. I just glanced at his last national title bracket(2015) and it leaves something to be desired.... Could he have become serviceable. Sure, would he have beat Gwiz or Gable.... Strong doubts.
Do I discount heavyweight highschool state championships? A bit....
Do I discount Oregon State championships.....
A bit... I guess maybe he could've become equal to our world medalists. But maybe not.

You gave criteria, I met those criteria with an example.

4 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Not 3x state champ, cadet world medalist.....

3x state champ, 2x national champ. Maybe not cadet world medalist, but he also never went to worlds because during that time of year he was....

Playing. Football.

His wiki doesn't even list the Fargo accolades. That's how little he or his team care about wrestling. And that was the whole point of my argument of what happens when we have a superior upperweight athlete such as Steveson or Snyder or Varner focused on wrestling rather than a money sport.

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I don't know how you latched onto this black narrative or why you are using a bi-racial person to do so, but Gable Steveson is > 250 lbs, does back flips when he is exhausted and is quick as a cat.  The guy is an athlete.  It is that simple.

Wasn't a "latch on" movement.

It was a "wrestling is healthy as is, the heavier athletes we lose to football are mostly African American" movement........

 

To say Gable is an example of when an athlete chooses wrestling over football (as if he wasn't groomed from his f*cking name at birth to become a wrestler) is ridiculous.

.

 

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No doubt, however a lot of the replies assume that there is something called "athleticism" that would make someone good at all sports given tbe proper training. Maybe no one is making this assumption. 
Correct, "athleticism" doesn't give you a 1 up on somebody of similar size who has proved to be "the best" over 15+ years .

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3x state champ, 2x national champ. Maybe not cadet world medalist, but he also never went to worlds because during that time of year he was....
Playing. Football.
His wiki doesn't even list the Fargo accolades. That's how little he or his team care about wrestling. And that was the whole point of my argument of what happens when we have a superior upperweight athlete such as Steveson or Snyder or Varner focused on wrestling rather than a money sport.
So you're telling me, had he pursued wrestling (chances are .... Even if only 1% ) we wouldve won Olympic gold at the "2020" Olympics!

As is, we only won it with a multiple time state, national, age-level World Champion......
I hate the NFL

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I don't know how you latched onto this black narrative or why you are using a bi-racial person to do so, but Gable Steveson is > 250 lbs, does back flips when he is exhausted and is quick as a cat.  The guy is an athlete.  It is that simple.

Also I know there are plenty of white linemen.....

But if you want Gable Athleticism (blackness) you gotta go African.

 

Even@bnwtwg gave an African-American Oregon State Champ as his point .

 

Sorry, in general, the larger "athletic" "explosive" people are black people (again I AM BLACK).

Its not a racist thing. Im just saying "we lose athletes to football, we need more Gable's"

To me is just saying…...

"I wish big black guys wrestled more than they footballed"

ME TOO.....

 

But it doesn't change the fact that heavy is a continually strong weight for us, and even if 1 guy turned out to be better than Gable..the result is the same ......

 

#Cheers

 

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Russ Weil. 2x IL state champ. Skipped wrestling, made NFL practice squads as an RB and LB. Took out Joe Sapp (4 year D1 starter) and Kyle Williams for his titles. Was blunt when he said he only wrestled to stay in shape and improve his footwork + handfighting.

Grant Miller. 2X IL state champ. Went to Ohio State for football. Fargo champ at least once and 6x+ AA.

Grant Goebel. 2 or 3x IL state champ, top 3 nationally. Skipped wrestling to play football at Ohio State, had a cup of coffee in the NFL as an interior DL. Won a bunch of tourneys considered top-tier at the time.

Tim Roth. 1x IL state champ, skipped wrestling at Iowa U, 6+ year career in the NFL.

They have two things in common and only one is their weight class since you are being obtuse. I wish they followed the wrestling route because they were all fantastic athletes standing over 6 feet and over 200 pounds. That's just one state and guys that were around my time that I recall off the top of my head with national accolades that skipped wrestling after high school. So quit trying to put words in my mouth and associating them to a different ideology than the one I have clearly presented multiple times in multiple manners.

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