Legality of 4 point stance and Ferrari’s wrestling style

[CoachWrestling 436]

Anyone else feel that hanging out in a 4 point stance should not be allowed, similar to freestyle? It stalls all action, it’s horrible. After watching Ferrari last night, he does nothing in close matches. On the feet he stalls in a 4 point stance and on top he just crotch rides and runs people out of bounds. It’s horrible wrestling. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by CoachWrestling

[wamba 52]

It definitely isn’t conducive to offensive wrestling.

I can’t blame the wrestlers for doing it as it seems to be allowed but I’d like to see a stall if it’s done often or for any prolonged amount of time.

[TBar1977 4,608]

I think we all recognize the four point stance is stalling.  There are degrees to things, right? Backing up one step to avoid a takedown attempt is not stalling, but continually backing out of bounds is stalling. So we know it when we see it, and the four point stance is stalling. 

[Plasmodium 2,309]

I remember this argument when Matt Valenti was shredding people from his knees.

[NJDan 1,113]

It may be stalling. But if they want to disallow it, they should make a rule that makes it illegal per se, rather than allow it to be interpreted as stalling.

[uncle bernard 1,124]

if he attacks from there repeatedly it’s not an issue. if he doesn’t, it’s stalling. it should be treated like they treat the finger locks now. one downside of the out of bounds stalling rules is that officials now rarely call regular stalling. 

[CoachWrestling 436]

9 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

if he attacks from there repeatedly it’s not an issue. if he doesn’t, it’s stalling. it should be treated like they treat the finger locks now. one downside of the out of bounds stalling rules is that officials now rarely call regular stalling. 

When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling. 

[Le duke 453]

Every time he goes down to four points of contact, stalling should be called.


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[ionel 2,744]

1 hour ago, CoachWrestling said:

When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling. 

You want to go retrieve Robles NCAA championship medal?  

[uncle bernard 1,124]

1 hour ago, CoachWrestling said:

When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling. 

yeah that’s what i said. stop stealing my takes!

[Wrestleknownothing 1,656]

A few years back after watching an Indiana high school semi-final where one of the wrestlers routinely dropped to wrestle from his hands and knees without any contact from the other wrestler (not as a result of a snap down, for example), I went on the Indiana message board to argue that this was stalling as it was an attempt to avoid wrestling. Boy, was that an unpopular stance, but I stand by it. There is no way to make a bright line rule for stalling though, so it will have to be like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of the obscene. We know it when we see it.

[Drake_Mallard 373]

Could Ferrari win titles without this tactic? How dis-similar is this from Heil's stall tactic where he was not near as good when the rules changed to prevent it?

Edited December 18, 2021 by Drake_Mallard

[Mphillips 1,821]

57 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

A few years back after watching an Indiana high school semi-final where one of the wrestlers routinely dropped to wrestle from his hands and knees without any contact from the other wrestler (not as a result of a snap down, for example), I went on the Indiana message board to argue that this was stalling as it was an attempt to avoid wrestling. Boy, was that an unpopular stance, but I stand by it. There is no way to make a bright line rule for stalling though, so it will have to be like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's definition of the obscene. We know it when we see it.

They wrestle in Indiana?

[Wrestleknownothing 1,656]

Parris, Micic, Red, and 3 Lees would like to have a conversation with you out back.

[Mphillips 1,821]

Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

Parris, Micic, Red, and 3 Lees would like to have a conversation with you out back.

Present company excluded of course...

[Wrestleknownothing 1,656]

1 minute ago, Mphillips said:

Present company excluded of course...

Actually 4 Lees. Now one of them has a bone to pick with me.

[Mphillips 1,821]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Actually 4 Lees. Now one of them has a bone to pick with me.

I hope it's the worst one of the bunch...

[Wrestleknownothing 1,656]

Just now, Mphillips said:

I hope it's the worst one of the bunch...

That's the problem. All 4 think they are the 1.

[ionel 2,744]

Ferrari has got a lot of takedowns from this position.  I'd contend if getting takedowns you aren't stalling.  This is the first time I've seen him use this approach this year.  In contrast he occasionally goes into a position where he is standing straight up, arms in the air inviting his opponent to take a shot (I've seen no shot attempts this year).  If the opponent refuses to shoot should he be called for stalling?  

Early last year a handful of folks said he'd never be any good cause all he had was a double leg, now that he has a more diverse approach they claim all he does is stall.  ;_;

[headshuck 2,626]

Parris, Micic, Red, and 3 Lees would like to have a conversation with you out back.

Did Lee’s ACL’s sprout new Lees?

[Wrestleknownothing 1,656]

1 hour ago, headshuck said:

Did Lee’s ACL’s sprout new Lees?

If anyone's could....

[CoachWrestling 436]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

Ferrari has got a lot of takedowns from this position.  I'd contend if getting takedowns you aren't stalling.  This is the first time I've seen him use this approach this year.  In contrast he occasionally goes into a position where he is standing straight up, arms in the air inviting his opponent to take a shot (I've seen no shot attempts this year).  If the opponent refuses to shoot should he be called for stalling?  

Early last year a handful of folks said he'd never be any good cause all he had was a double leg, now that he has a more diverse approach they claim all he does is stall.  ;_;

He does score from this position, I agree. The problem is it stops action from happening, which is the definition of stalling. His opponent is forced to stay off his knees and risk getting taken down, or go down onto their knees and be stuck in a stalemated position. This is not promote wrestling. Watch the Buchanan match from last night, it was horrible wrestling. Him inviting opponents to shoot does not create a stalemated position so no, it should not be called stalling either way. 

[boconnell 1,632]

24 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

He does score from this position, I agree. The problem is it stops action from happening, which is the definition of stalling. His opponent is forced to stay off his knees and risk getting taken down, or go down onto their knees and be stuck in a stalemated position. This is not promote wrestling. Watch the Buchanan match from last night, it was horrible wrestling. Him inviting opponents to shoot does not create a stalemated position so no, it should not be called stalling either way. 

So you admit he scores from this position but your complaint is that he doesn't give the other guy a chance to score while he has a chance to score?  

[Mphillips 1,821]

His wrestling isn't much on style, but it's been working for him...

[CoachWrestling 436]

44 minutes ago, boconnell said:

So you admit he scores from this position but your complaint is that he doesn't give the other guy a chance to score while he has a chance to score?  

Yes. It doesn't promote wrestling (in freestyle it is coined passive and is defined as either avoiding wrestling or feeling the hold). It forces the other guy to get scored on or get stuck in a stalemated position. There's a reason it is illegal in freestyle wrestling, it's bad for the sport. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by CoachWrestling