Legality of 4 point stance and Ferrari’s wrestling style

[CoachWrestling 436]

3 hours ago, Drake_Mallard said:

Could Ferrari win titles without this tactic? How dis-similar is this from Heil's stall tactic where he was not near as good when the rules changed to prevent it?

I think he still could win, but he seems to score a lot of points with this tactic. 

[Plasmodium 2,307]

Ferrari is definitely good enough to win with or without this tactic.

[CoachWrestling 436]

2 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Ferrari is definitely good enough to win with or without this tactic.

I agree

And to clarify, I have no problem with him snapping into a 4 point stance and attacking. I do have a problem with him hanging in that position for a prolonged period of time. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by CoachWrestling

[hammerlockthree 2,637]

There are obvious disadvantages to dropping to a knee, but no one coaches against it because we got it in our heads that we should just yell stalling.

[boconnell 1,632]

5 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

Yes. It doesn't promote wrestling (in freestyle it is coined passive and is defined as either avoiding wrestling or feeling the hold). It forces the other guy to get scored on or get stuck in a stalemated position. There's a reason it is illegal in freestyle wrestling, it's bad for the sport. 

If Ferrari is scoring from that spot then it's not avoiding action and it's not stalling.  If he isn't scoring from there or trying to score from there, then it's stalling.  Call it when he's not scoring or trying to score.

[CoachWrestling 436]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

If Ferrari is scoring from that spot then it's not avoiding action and it's not stalling.  If he isn't scoring from there or trying to score from there, then it's stalling.  Call it when he's not scoring or trying to score.

 

[CoachWrestling 436]

3 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

There are obvious disadvantages to dropping to a knee, but no one coaches against it because we got it in our heads that we should just yell stalling.

That’s BS. It’s a stalling tactic. 

[boconnell 1,632]

8 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

 

Thanks for proving my point that it's not stalling and reinforcing your point that it is not allowed in freestyle.  

[CoachWrestling 436]

3 hours ago, boconnell said:

Thanks for proving my point that it's not stalling and reinforcing your point that it is not allowed in freestyle.  

The amount of likes my post is garnering is proof I am not the only person who thinks this. Did you watch his match versus Buchanan? It's almost unwatchable. A horrible wrestling match. Something needs to be done. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7181375-2021-oklahoma-state-vs-wyoming/videos?playing=7279115

In the last 68 seconds of the match Ferrari spends about 50 seconds of it in a 3 or 4 point stance. That is bad for the sport. I'd love to see you defend that.

Edited December 19, 2021 by CoachWrestling

[southend 243]

22 hours ago, Mphillips said:

They wrestle in Indiana?

Angel is wondering the same thing!

[boconnell 1,632]

2 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

The amount of likes my post is garnering is proof I am not the only person who thinks this. Did you watch his match versus Buchanan? It's almost unwatchable. A horrible wrestling match. Something needs to be done. 

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7181375-2021-oklahoma-state-vs-wyoming/videos?playing=7279115

In the last 68 seconds of the match Ferrari spends about 50 seconds of it in a 3 or 4 point stance. That is bad for the sport. I'd love to see you defend that.

I don't need to defend that.  I also don't need to count likes.  Whether you find it watchable means absolutely nothing.  

I said it already, if he isn't trying to score he's stalling.  If he's scoring there or trying to score there, he's not stalling.  

[patmilkovich 130]

When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling. This reminds me of the 5 second count on an ankle. Since we don't teach how to be offensive from the bottom anymore let's make rules that help the man with limited knowledge and poor coaching, instead of learning those labor intensive ankle ride counters which  would allow him to escape or reverse, regardless of what tactics the top man uses to control or prevent. Why would any other technique in which a wrestler is static for 5 seconds not be held to the same standard?  I've watched many russian ties go way longer than 5 seconds with no additional action, or 2 on 1 wrist rides, hooks, underhooks, over and undercooks, throwing legs, Dumb rule IMO. Learn the proper counters or offensive options to what is presented and the problem is solved. Wrestling will have more action and excitement as well.

I remember this argument when Matt Valenti was shredding people from his knees. ' As mentioned, ala Anthony Robles...if his opponents would have gone down to their knee(s) and knew the variety of TD's from the knees, perhaps his career might have been different.  Many of them wrestled him while still on their feet. 

Every time he goes down to four points of contact, stalling should be called. Perhaps I was fortunate to have a high school coach who had an array of techniques conveyed to each us that anytime your opponent goes to his knees, it should be an automatic two point takedown for us...Who doesn't know that if your opponent is lower than you, you are more vulnerable.  Why do you think John Smith was so successful with his low single? He figured out that being lower was an advantage.  If your opponent goes down to a four point, you should do the same...and while you're there, maybe try to learn the variety of takedowns available to you.  He (your opp) is actually on his feet...they're just shorter legs.

[CoachWrestling 436]

4 minutes ago, patmilkovich said:

Every time he goes down to four points of contact, stalling should be called. Perhaps I was fortunate to have a high school coach who had an array of techniques conveyed to each us that anytime your opponent goes to his knees, it should be an automatic two point takedown for us...Who doesn't know that if your opponent is lower than you, you are more vulnerable.  Why do you think John Smith was so successful with his low single? He figured out that being lower was an advantage.  If your opponent goes down to a four point, you should do the same...and while you're there, maybe try to learn the variety of takedowns available to you.  He (your opp) is actually on his feet...they're just shorter legs.

Yeah, I’m sure the Wyoming coaches don’t know any coaching tactics against it. 
 

 

[CoachWrestling 436]

13 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I don't need to defend that.  I also don't need to count likes.  Whether you find it watchable means absolutely nothing.  

I said it already, if he isn't trying to score he's stalling.  If he's scoring there or trying to score there, he's not stalling.  

Whether wrestling action is actually happening and wrestlers aren’t stalling in positions is important for the sport. Encouraging action is important. Discussing things with you is insufferable. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by CoachWrestling

[ionel 2,730]

Should collar ties be illegal, have you ever seen anyone taken down with just a collar tie?  ;_;

[NJDan 1,113]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

Should collar ties be illegal, have you ever seen anyone taken down with just a collar tie?  ;_;

They should be illegal if for more than 5 seconds

[CoachWrestling 436]

15 minutes ago, ionel said:

Should collar ties be illegal, have you ever seen anyone taken down with just a collar tie?  ;_;

Complete strawman. Great job completely twisting the point I was trying to make. Do you really need me to break this down for you? 

Edited December 19, 2021 by CoachWrestling

[patmilkovich 130]

CW....Not sure what you meant referencing Wyoming coaches...

[Fletcher 1,130]

2 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

 Perhaps I was fortunate to have a high school coach who had an array of techniques conveyed to each us that anytime your opponent goes to his knees, it should be an automatic two point takedown for us...

Slight subject change, but I'd love to hear more about this. What's the best strategy here?

[CoachWrestling 436]

6 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

CW....Not sure what you meant referencing Wyoming coaches...

Your post implied that your HS coaches taught you how to score on opponent in the 4 point stance, implying that the Wyoming coaches did not. Maybe Ferrari is better in the position than your opponents in high school. 

[hammerlockthree 2,637]

23 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

That’s BS. It’s a stalling tactic. 

so no one ever scores from there?

BTW how would you counter someone on one knee? I

Edited December 20, 2021 by hammerlockthree

[ionel 2,730]

9 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

 

BTW how would you counter someone on one knee? 

That would be half stalling!

[hammerlockthree 2,637]

7 minutes ago, ionel said:

That would be half stalling!

dammit thats the most annoying kind.

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

15 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

 

Every time he goes down to four points of contact, stalling should be called. Perhaps I was fortunate to have a high school coach who had an array of techniques conveyed to each us that anytime your opponent goes to his knees, it should be an automatic two point takedown for us...Who doesn't know that if your opponent is lower than you, you are more vulnerable.  Why do you think John Smith was so successful with his low single? He figured out that being lower was an advantage.  If your opponent goes down to a four point, you should do the same...and while you're there, maybe try to learn the variety of takedowns available to you.  He (your opp) is actually on his feet...they're just shorter legs.

It's just really boring to watch two people wrestling from their knees as a fan. 

6 hours ago, CoachWrestling said:

Your post implied that your HS coaches taught you how to score on opponent in the 4 point stance, implying that the Wyoming coaches did not. Maybe Ferrari is better in the position than your opponents in high school. 

I'm pretty sure his college opponents were good. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Billyhoyle

[1032004 1,514]

On 12/18/2021 at 8:24 AM, CoachWrestling said:

Anyone else feel that hanging out in a 4 point stance should not be allowed, similar to freestyle? It stalls all action, it’s horrible. After watching Ferrari last night, he does nothing in close matches. On the feet he stalls in a 4 point stance and on top he just crotch rides and runs people out of bounds. It’s horrible wrestling. 

I think the running people out of bounds from top is worse IMO.  He usually does it just well enough so that most refs don’t consider it stalling but I wouldn’t hate if he got called for stalling for doing that repeatedly.