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Legality of 4 point stance and Ferrari’s wrestling style

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CW...I have no idea what the Wyoming coaches know/don't know...teach/don't teach...my response was to the idea that "When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling." and I was taught that regardless of my opponent's stance, particularly if he goes to his knees, then it's a great scoring opportunity for us because we have been taught lots of options...furthermore...the first thing one's stance should do is limit your opponent's opportunity to score (protect yourself)...the second thing your stance should do is allow you to set up scoring opportunities. Whether your opponent is on his feet or on his knees, there are scoring opportunities...if you have been taught them. My other point is stalling is part of virtually every sport. Learning the discreetness of it is a science and good wrestlers who understand the rules will use it effectively. Getting ahead of a good wrestler, staying ahead of a good wrestler, and protecting your lead is just smart wrestling whether one agrees with the strategy or not. But one wrestler on his knees is not stalling...and I'll reference Robles again. You don't appreciate watching two wrestlers on their knees. I don't appreciate watching one guy flatten out on bottom like a piece of paper on a table.. I can't expect wrestlers to stay off their knees because of the nature of the sport, but I can expect them to stay off their stomach...my coach taught us that too... but Just my perspective, of course.

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Anyone watching that match and determining that Ferrari's 4 point stance is the obstacle to wrestling action is nuts.  In the first 6 minutes of the match Buchanan goes to a four point stance more often than Ferrari does.  He is the one initiating it.  Both are in 4 point stances when Ferrari scores the only TD of the match.  Nothing about either guy's 4 point stance stopped Ferrari from scoring.  Additionally Ferrari is on both feet for most of the first 6 minutes and Buchanan doesn't really even attempt to score.  The main obstacle to scoring in this match is Buchanan's near total disinterest in offense.

In the final minute of the match Ferrari is stalling from a 4 point stance like most guys with a lead stall from 2 feet in the final minute.  If you want to call him 1-3 times in that minute you can, but it would be strange after Buchanan spent 6 minutes backing up and wrestling from his knees.  Buchanan comes as close to scoring against the 4 point stance as he did against the standing Ferrari.  

I have no idea how you watch this match and think Ferrari's 4 point stance is what is keeping wrestling from happening.  The only time any neutral action happened it was from that stance.  

Edited by boconnell

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On 12/18/2021 at 7:24 AM, CoachWrestling said:

Anyone else feel that hanging out in a 4 point stance should not be allowed, similar to freestyle? It stalls all action, it’s horrible. After watching Ferrari last night, he does nothing in close matches. On the feet he stalls in a 4 point stance and on top he just crotch rides and runs people out of bounds. It’s horrible wrestling. 

I thought a few years ago if you went down into the quadpod or tripod and backed up it was a stall call.  

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On 12/18/2021 at 7:24 AM, CoachWrestling said:

Anyone else feel that hanging out in a 4 point stance should not be allowed, similar to freestyle? It stalls all action, it’s horrible. After watching Ferrari last night, he does nothing in close matches. On the feet he stalls in a 4 point stance and on top he just crotch rides and runs people out of bounds. It’s horrible wrestling. 

I agree. I loath watching his boring matches. Needs to outlawed if you have 2 functional legs. 

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bo...very good points you made comparing 4pt v 2 feet stalling/scoring...after watching the match a second time, I thought there were was more action from 4pt than there was from their feet.   At least they were active and there was no real stalling until the very end...but then again, Ferrari earned the right to stall since the call was inconsequential to the outcome. That 's what happens when you can get ahead...you get to "kill time" as the match progresses and either win the duel match or move on to the next round. No need to take foolish risks.

What I noticed was the bottom wrestling. They both came up off the whistle, established hand control, movement, and hip separation. That's how wrestling should be executed from bottom. I have not watched either of them enough to know if they are hammers on top, but what they each did from bottom was pretty good. I understand completely why many freestyle folks want to eliminate top/bottom wrestling. Much easier to just teach/learn TD's and eliminate those two difficult, frustrating, labor intensive, and technical positions of top/bottom. In folk style, if all things are equal on the feet, it then comes down to who is better trained in the top and bottom skills (with riding time). Proficiency in those two skills separates a lot of people.

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I agree. I loath watching his boring matches. Needs to outlawed if you have 2 functional legs. 

Exactly. People mention Robles as if that is some justification for not implementing a rule banning this. The rule could easily be made to include exceptions for those situations.

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On 12/20/2021 at 4:08 PM, boconnell said:

Anyone watching that match and determining that Ferrari's 4 point stance is the obstacle to wrestling action is nuts.  In the first 6 minutes of the match Buchanan goes to a four point stance more often than Ferrari does.  He is the one initiating it.  Both are in 4 point stances when Ferrari scores the only TD of the match.  Nothing about either guy's 4 point stance stopped Ferrari from scoring.  Additionally Ferrari is on both feet for most of the first 6 minutes and Buchanan doesn't really even attempt to score.  The main obstacle to scoring in this match is Buchanan's near total disinterest in offense.

In the final minute of the match Ferrari is stalling from a 4 point stance like most guys with a lead stall from 2 feet in the final minute.  If you want to call him 1-3 times in that minute you can, but it would be strange after Buchanan spent 6 minutes backing up and wrestling from his knees.  Buchanan comes as close to scoring against the 4 point stance as he did against the standing Ferrari.  

I have no idea how you watch this match and think Ferrari's 4 point stance is what is keeping wrestling from happening.  The only time any neutral action happened it was from that stance.  

Agreed.

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Used this all the time in college to protect bad ankles which couldn't sprawl fast with the brace on. You get so good at knowing when you're in danger of getting hit for stalling. Found it was the best way to safely close distance to get your hands on a fast opponent and then you can come up wrestle. Dake is an absolute master of it, but guys like Jordan Leen used to to great effect as well. Don't think there is anything inherently stalling about it unless you refuse to engage, which you could say about any stance.

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15 years ago people used to complain about Nick Simmons doing the same thing. Much like Ferrari, Simmons used it to create action/contact in an attempt to score. His opponents learned to adjust to the strategy.  I suspect 15 years from now, people will still be bitching about it.  

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On 12/20/2021 at 7:54 AM, patmilkovich said:

my response was to the idea that "When you’re putting yourself in a position where the other wrestler has little to no offensive attacks, and you’re just hanging out there for extended periods of time, it is stalling." and I was taught that regardless of my opponent's stance, particularly if he goes to his knees, then it's a great scoring opportunity.

Word. Check out Ferarri's response to his opponent's reciprocal four-point stance: He just attacks . . .usually some sorta head-butt reshot, blast double=>chase the corner/go behind /single. He did it 2x during the Wyoming match.

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1.  Change “stalling” to “passivity.”  Stalling implies you are trying to sit on a lead (or preventing bonus scoring).  This makes referee mentality to have both actions/criteria AND circumstances to be present.

2.  Referees must have the balls to call passive wrestlers.  This includes stall riding.  
 

Here is the solution:

 Wrestlers in a “dominant hold” have a certain amount of time to complete a move.  What is a dominant hold?  Russian tie, legs in with opponent hip off the mat, etc.  10 seconds then call stalemate and restart.  

 

 

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On 12/20/2021 at 6:49 AM, 1032004 said:

I think the running people out of bounds from top is worse IMO.  He usually does it just well enough so that most refs don’t consider it stalling but I wouldn’t hate if he got called for stalling for doing that repeatedly.

 

There was some discussion about this match on FRL/twitter.   Murin seems to have stolen Ferrari's top style (ironically against OSU) and repeatedly ran Gfeller out of bounds from top.

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On 1/30/2022 at 10:25 AM, 1032004 said:

37:45 for 125 match.  Exhibit A of stalling from the 4 point stance/wrestling on your knees.  I’m not sure if I’d make the stance itself stalling, but it should warrant a quicker call IMO if they’re not doing anything from it.

 

This was the exact thing I thought of as well. On the knees neutral should be half way to a stall call from the get-go.

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