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Wrestler Vaccinations

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2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

In the event a host country has a vaccination requirement?   Vaccinations are easy to forge.  Actually, remarkably easy.  It is a cottage industry.

And a felony to make.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-penalties-for-fake-vaccine-cards.html

 

I suspect the athlete who gets caught using one will suffer at least a multi year suspension on competition.

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20 minutes ago, Idaho said:

 

Do you consider Fauci one of  "the world's best medical minds?{

Sometimes even the best medical minds in the world are not correct - 8 mos ago JJ was the best thing since sliced pie according to the CDC and FDA - This week they both warned to not use JJ. You are correct...it requires who you put your trust in. 

Or virii change and you have to adapt to new data?

 

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5 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Do you consider Fauci one of  "the world's best medical minds?{

Sometimes even the best medical minds in the world are not correct - 8 mos ago JJ was the best thing since sliced pie according to the CDC and FDA - This week they both warned to not use JJ. You are correct...it requires who you put your trust in. 

Hmmm... I don't know enough about Fauci to know exactly how much of a medical expert he is vs. his administrative skill set. In other words, because he is an administrator in addition to having considerable medical experience, I suspect there are those with more current specific medical expertise - some may well be in his team. But, yes, I do consider him somewhat of an expert who utilizes resources including many other medical minds to draw his, and his teams', conclusions. (Like most experts working with complicated workloads, they generally don't work alone. One engineer didn't design Fords new electric F-150, for example.)

Yes - you are absolutely right. Sometimes experts are wrong. Particularly when they don't have good enough information to draw from. Like all of us, sometimes they make mistakes. New viruses and new vaccines are very complicated. And advice from experts is required to provide guidance, even if they don't have enough information for perfect advice yet. They can't wait a year to provide advice, it is required sooner. They do the best they can with what they know.

Bridges fall, a space shuttle exploded, Tesla's crash and burn in auto-pilot mode, hackers take advantage of computer programmers mistakes, etc. The world has become quite complex.

But, at the end of the day, obviously neither you nor I could design better bridges, space shuttles, electric cars, or operating system software.

We simply have to trust experts. We can follow them closely and question them, but we can't do better - even with youtube videos to help.

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44 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Hmmm... I don't know enough about Fauci to know exactly how much of a medical expert he is vs. his administrative skill set. In other words, because he is an administrator in addition to having considerable medical experience, I suspect there are those with more current specific medical expertise - some may well be in his team. But, yes, I do consider him somewhat of an expert who utilizes resources including many other medical minds to draw his, and his teams', conclusions. (Like most experts working with complicated workloads, they generally don't work alone. One engineer didn't design Fords new electric F-150, for example.)

Yes - you are absolutely right. Sometimes experts are wrong. Particularly when they don't have good enough information to draw from. Like all of us, sometimes they make mistakes. New viruses and new vaccines are very complicated. And advice from experts is required to provide guidance, even if they don't have enough information for perfect advice yet. They can't wait a year to provide advice, it is required sooner. They do the best they can with what they know.

Bridges fall, a space shuttle exploded, Tesla's crash and burn in auto-pilot mode, hackers take advantage of computer programmers mistakes, etc. The world has become quite complex.

But, at the end of the day, obviously neither you nor I could design better bridges, space shuttles, electric cars, or operating system software.

We simply have to trust experts. We can follow them closely and question them, but we can't do better - even with youtube videos to help.

Good perspective.  I would add that life, the human body, viruses, etc are many, many orders of magnitude more complicated than bridges, computer software, or the electric F-150.  There are probably quite a few people that understand the electric F-150 very well, whereas no one that truly understands viruses, virus mutations, the human body's reaction to viruses, etc.  All the very best experts can do is observe, theorize, recommend, repeat and readjust.  That's where we're at, like it or not.  But, it's a heck of a lot better than getting your direction from social media.
 

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1 hour ago, cu155 said:

Where is the whole Kyle Dake is unvaccinated trope even coming from?  He's said at least once on video that he's had the vaccine.  If he's said otherwise somewhere else I've missed it.

Where is this so called video of him saying that?

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34 minutes ago, Michael Hansen said:

I’m not “anti vaxx”.  I’m also not “vaxxed”.  You want the shot?  Get it.  You don’t?  Don’t get it.  But I find it ironic that the “vax nazis” aren’t sitting in front of McDonalds fat shaming people seeing as heart disease kills over twice as many people in the US as covid.   But then again,  you may not get the same “social justice points” on random discussion boards and social media sites.  
if you got the vax, what exactly are you worried about?  Getting covid from someone that isn’t vaxxed?   If so,  I have some disturbing news for you if your critical thinking skills are a little rusty.  
Nothing worse than Vax Karen’s pretending to be concerned for the well being of the society over a flu that has a 99.8% survival rate.  I understand completely that you are “scared” but remember, the government said you’d be fine if you got their vax.  You have nothing to worry about.  Mkay…….

I'll discuss your paragraphs one at a time... one through three:

1) You're right, heart disease has killed roughly twice as many people in the US as Covid. Cancer is 2nd and has killed considerably more people than Covid. I don't know that "fat shaming" is a good idea. It would seem to be better to encourage those that don't practice healthy eating or exercising than to shame them. Shame isn't a particularly good motivator. For most, it doesn't work well at all. Shaming those that don't get vaccinated is similarly a bad idea - it isn't a good motivator. The same goes for smokers and lung cancer, etc. Like heart disease and cancer, Covid is an awful thing that we should all work together to combat. I suspect nobody is on the side of Covid, so we're all on the same side against it.

2) For most of us, the "worry" isn't only about us personally getting infected. It's about the bigger picture. Our friends and family, the national and global spread. We can't stop the spread, but we can do what we can to help slow it. That is what we're hoping for. All of us wish we had better answers but, unfortunately, we don't at the current time. We only have what's in front of us to work with. (Although prayers for miracles aren't a bad idea either.)

3) The "Karen" internet thing about attaching a name to a particular bad attitude seemed sort of funny, but let's be honest. It is rudeness masquerading as comedy. Not terribly funny, not cute, and certainly not original. Covid has killed over 1 in 500 in the US and is getting worse instead of better. We should all be concerned. Getting together, on the same page, to figure out how to combat it seems to be a much better idea than downplaying it as if it isn't something to be concerned about. We shouldn't be scared, we should be brave, focused and work together.

 

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3 hours ago, cu155 said:

Where is the whole Kyle Dake is unvaccinated trope even coming from?  He's said at least once on video that he's had the vaccine.  If he's said otherwise somewhere else I've missed it.

It just comes with him signing up with the athletes against vaccines group. I don’t follow all his interviews. We sure he didn’t say “I’ve been immunized” like Aaron Rodgers? 

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45 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

I'll discuss your paragraphs one at a time... one through three:

1) You're right, heart disease has killed roughly twice as many people in the US as Covid. Cancer is 2nd and has killed considerably more people than Covid. I don't know that "fat shaming" is a good idea. It would seem to be better to encourage those that don't practice healthy eating or exercising than to shame them. Shame isn't a particularly good motivator. For most, it doesn't work well at all. Shaming those that don't get vaccinated is similarly a bad idea - it isn't a good motivator. The same goes for smokers and lung cancer, etc. Like heart disease and cancer, Covid is an awful thing that we should all work together to combat. I suspect nobody is on the side of Covid, so we're all on the same side against it

 

If there was a free vaccine that eradicated the serious effects from cancer or heart disease and millions refused to get it and continued to die from them this would be a good point. Assuming everybody who has heart issues is obese or has cancer is a smoker is also way off base. Choosing not to get the vaccine puts pressure on our healthcare system and workers which is pathetically selfish and un-American. It also helps the vaccine to mutate and spread which leads to more breakthrough cases and deaths to people who are immunocompromised. 

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Kyle did say he's "been vaccinated" ... which, in the spirit of Aaron Rodgers, could mean he's talking about Tetanus or Polio or some other vaccination.

He's a relatively smart guy, so he may just be implying something that isn't actually being said.

Regardless, what he said here is 100% not even close to proof that he's been vaccinated against Covid.

Edited by GreatWhiteNorth

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3 hours ago, Idaho said:

 

Do you consider Fauci one of  "the world's best medical minds?{

Sometimes even the best medical minds in the world are not correct - 8 mos ago JJ was the best thing since sliced pie according to the CDC and FDA - This week they both warned to not use JJ. You are correct...it requires who you put your trust in. 

99.9% of the population isn't qualified to decide if Dr. Fauci is one of the best medical minds so it doesn't matter what most people think. However there are people who are qualified who do consider him one of our best minds and they've been doing it for over 40 years.

Awards and honors

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8 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

If there was a free vaccine that eradicated the serious effects from cancer or heart disease and millions refused to get it and continued to die from them this would be a good point. Assuming everybody who has heart issues is obese or has cancer is a smoker is also way off base. Choosing not to get the vaccine puts pressure on our healthcare system and workers which is pathetically selfish and un-American. It also helps the vaccine to mutate and spread which leads to more breakthrough cases and deaths to people who are immunocompromised. 

Based on your post here, we don't disagree at all... not even a little bit.

Not sure about your perspective. Let me know. Perhaps I missed something?

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9 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

99.9% of the population isn't qualified to decide if Dr. Fauci is one of the best medical minds so it doesn't matter what most people think. However there are people who are qualified who do consider him one of our best minds and they've been doing it for over 40 years.

You may be totally correct but be careful here.

Because you think you are right, and even if you are right - it isn't OK to dismiss what other people think as if it "doesn't matter". It does matter.

That's precisely why I'm a strong proponent of working together. Pitting us against each other by claiming "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't helpful at all.

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22 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

You may be totally correct but be careful here.

Because you think you are right, and even if you are right - it isn't OK to dismiss what other people think as if it "doesn't matter". It does matter.

That's precisely why I'm a strong proponent of working together. Pitting us against each other by claiming "I'm right and you're wrong" isn't helpful at all.

It's also not just Dr. Fauci, the CDC has a board and votes on what their recommendations are going to be and they're the ones who have made the recommendation. I don't think Dr. Fauci is even on the board, he just agrees with their findings.

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I would be careful about judging someone based on the Awards they have received. Last year Andrew Cuomo was winning Awards left and right, now look at him. Organizations love to hand out awards based on anything but what they claim the award is about, so again, don't judge based solely on awards. 

 

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20 hours ago, Idaho said:

Do you consider Fauci one of  "the world's best medical minds?{

Sometimes even the best medical minds in the world are not correct - 8 mos ago JJ was the best thing since sliced pie according to the CDC and FDA - This week they both warned to not use JJ. You are correct...it requires who you put your trust in. 

 

This is true. Also, I watched a 60 Minutes episode recently where they discussed what the CDC and FDA did back in the 1970's with Swine Flu Vaccines. That vaccine ended in fiasco with numerous persons contracting guillain barre syndrome. People permanently disabled. There were many lies told, even physicians ending up apologizing to their patients. 

Again, I am triple vaxxed now. I also have members of my family that have contracted Covid. None got very sick and all remain with us, thankfully.  But I will not stop using my own mind and my own free will about anything in this world. When we have leaders who walk away from questions asked and refuse to address the concerns of those they want to control, they end up in the position we are in today where they are trusted by some and not trusted by others. 

Look at the demonstrations all over Europe. People are not happy with leadership. The people feel as though they are being failed. The Spanish Flu lasted about 2 years. This Covid virus is 2 years old with no end in sight, so is what they are doing working or not working? 

 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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23 hours ago, NJDan said:

There are some loud and prominent anti-vaxxers in the wrestling community. But are they representative? Is there any data on what percentage of NCAA wrestlers are vaccinated. Among freestyle wrestlers, is there  any mandate to be vaccinated in order to compete?

I’ve been perusing wrestling twitter and my guess is more than 50% are probably anti-Covid vax (not necessarily anti-vax).  This includes coaches at places like Stanford (Grant Leeth).  Even Martin Floreani has made some Covid skeptical tweets (and is now retweeting the heck out of this Athletes for Medical Freedom thing)

Don Beshada, lol

 

 

Edited by 1032004

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9 hours ago, buckshot1969 said:

99.9% of the population isn't qualified to decide if Dr. Fauci is one of the best medical minds so it doesn't matter what most people think. However there are people who are qualified who do consider him one of our best minds and they've been doing it for over 40 years

 Because in your opinion only .1 percent of the population is qualified to decide if he is one of the best medical minds,,  therefore it doesn't matter what I think,  and I just accept everything he has said? Um.... No. Good luck with that perspective in all facets of life. 

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39 minutes ago, Idaho said:

 Because in your opinion only .1 percent of the population is qualified to decide if he is one of the best medical minds,,  therefore it doesn't matter what I think,  and I just accept everything he has said? Um.... No. Good luck with that perspective in all facets of life. 

But it's not just what he says is it? The CDC comes up with our vaccine policy. Now I know they're just a bunch of "elitist scientists" who "have the credentials and background to make informed decisions" but they're going to have to do.

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17 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

But it's not just what he says is it? The CDC comes up with our vaccine policy. Now I know they're just a bunch of "elitist scientists" who "have the credentials and background to make informed decisions" but they're going to have to do.

Yep... just like the mechanic with all the certifications on the wall that doesn't' fix your car...keeps coming up with new things that are wrong while the original thing was never fixed... You just are going to have to do with that I guess and just keep taking that car back to the same guy.  There is a reason why there is mistrust with the entire system amongst many people vaccinated or not, but maybe you don't believe there is mistrust or the reasons behind the mistrust. The great thing about freedom is that you can choose to hedge on their every word and I can choose to question their every word and evaluate the outcomes. Now off to the Tournament of Champions. 

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4 hours ago, Idaho said:

Yep... just like the mechanic with all the certifications on the wall that doesn't' fix your car...keeps coming up with new things that are wrong while the original thing was never fixed... You just are going to have to do with that I guess and just keep taking that car back to the same guy.  There is a reason why there is mistrust with the entire system amongst many people vaccinated or not, but maybe you don't believe there is mistrust or the reasons behind the mistrust. The great thing about freedom is that you can choose to hedge on their every word and I can choose to question their every word and evaluate the outcomes. Now off to the Tournament of Champions. 

The left used to say "question authority" with regularity. Now that they have all the control they want you to "just shut up and (fill in the blank)"

We all know most scientists are smart, but when science and politics are intertwined what we get is politics, not science. A top guy in the EU is trying to get his fellow leaders to slow their roll and begin to actually listen to people for a change. But as you are aware they don't want to listen. Not there, and unfortunately not here either. They want you to just do whatever it is they say. That is a recipe for disaster. 

Question authority applies even more so when one side has total power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. 

Question authority, especially when they claim in 2020 that every death is the government's fault (because they did not then have all the levers of power) and this year every death is the people's fault. That isn't a reasonable take on the situation, in fact, to be blunt, it is extremely unreasonable. The distrust they are reaping today is their own fault for the way they act.

Walking away and not legitimately and openly listening to people gets them where they are, now they (and we) have to live with those consequences. Again, speaking as someone who is fully jabbed. In other words, I am offering some free advice to those (not you) who just preach at people as if they are stupid when they are anything but. 

Edited by TBar1977

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On 12/18/2021 at 10:40 AM, NJDan said:

Thanks. This makes the anti-vax wrestlers seem odder still.

The hubris of the pro-vax-mandate crowd is stunning. Wrestlers like Dake and Taylor know far more about nutrition and health and their bodies than any poster on this board. And if you're willing to do the research yourself (read the FDA fact sheets, the Pfizer trials, and know the CDC definitions of what "not fully vaccinated" means - don't be lazy and pin your decision on "experts') you'd find that bypassing the covid vaccines is a wise decision for many people, especially healthy young males. 

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1 hour ago, BooHawk18 said:

The hubris of the pro-vax-mandate crowd is stunning. Wrestlers like Dake and Taylor know far more about nutrition and health and their bodies than any poster on this board. 

Argument from authority logical fallacy.  By their statements, they don't actually know that much.

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