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you'd find that bypassing the covid vaccines is a wise decision for many people, especially healthy young males. 

There is no serious medical, scientific, or other credible information to support this statement, and even if there was, a healthy young male can still pass COVID, a disease that has killed over 800,000 Americans, on to someone more vulnerable. The stance taken by fools like this is staggering in its selfishness.

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17 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

It just comes with him signing up with the athletes against vaccines group. I don’t follow all his interviews. We sure he didn’t say “I’ve been immunized” like Aaron Rodgers? 

He said vaccinated...but to be clear, this whole athletes against vaccines thing is ridiculous.

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My mother had an aneurysm burst in her brain and had to be airlifted to UPenn to deal with it. In the follow up consultations we met multiple times w/ their chief brain surgeon who suggested my brothers and I get an MRA because these can be hereditary. For about one half of one second I thought about correcting him because I've learned from watching TV that it's really an MRI. The thing is that I caught myself and didn't correct him because he's the friggin head of brain surgery at UPenn, I immediately realized that he knows more than me. I'm not saying I don't know my body or nutrition, I just don't know anything about brain aneurysms just like Dake and Taylor aren't epidemiologists. They may "feel" like they could survive covid but that's actually stupid and factually wrong. It's also a fact that even if they do survive it they could have long-haul symptoms that end their careers or they could even pass it along to somebody else who doesn't survive. Frankly it's stupid as hell to still be explaining this to people going on two years into a pandemic. If there's anything to be grateful about it's that morons like this weren't so prevalent when polio and smallpox were a thing. It would have sucked to have my life ruined by something like that when I was a kid.

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14 minutes ago, IronChef said:


There is no serious medical, scientific, or other credible information to support this statement, and even if there was, a healthy young male can still pass COVID, a disease that has killed over 800,000 Americans, on to someone more vulnerable. The stance taken by fools like this is staggering in its selfishness.

Every day in America we have what is the equivalent of another Jonestown because people refuse to get vaccinated. Ironically these are the same people who fight social distancing/mask wearing guidelines. If they'd just use one ounce of common sense we could put this behind us but 80 million health experts w/ degrees from Facebook and Youtube keep making things worse for the rest of us.

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32 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

My mother had an aneurysm burst in her brain and had to be airlifted to UPenn to deal with it. In the follow up consultations we met multiple times w/ their chief brain surgeon who suggested my brothers and I get an MRA because these can be hereditary. For about one half of one second I thought about correcting him because I've learned from watching TV that it's really an MRI. The thing is that I caught myself and didn't correct him because he's the friggin head of brain surgery at UPenn, I immediately realized that he knows more than me. I'm not saying I don't know my body or nutrition, I just don't know anything about brain aneurysms just like Dake and Taylor aren't epidemiologists. They may "feel" like they could survive covid but that's actually stupid and factually wrong. It's also a fact that even if they do survive it they could have long-haul symptoms that end their careers or they could even pass it along to somebody else who doesn't survive. Frankly it's stupid as hell to still be explaining this to people going on two years into a pandemic. If there's anything to be grateful about it's that morons like this weren't so prevalent when polio and smallpox were a thing. It would have sucked to have my life ruined by something like that when I was a kid.

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Maybe it's time that there should be consequences for being unvaccinated. If you get sick w/ covid you get a tube of ivermectin and that's it. These people shouldn't be subjected to hospitals and all of their crooked doctors who spent years in medical school solely to lie to us about vaccines. Hospitals will open up so that the vaccinated sheeple who need other medical procedures can get them and insurance rates will decrease because there won't be so many covid claims.

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Just now, buckshot1969 said:

Maybe it's time that there should be consequences for being unvaccinated. If you get sick w/ covid you get a tube of ivermectin and that's it. These people shouldn't be subjected to hospitals and all of their crooked doctors who spent years in medical school solely to lie to us about vaccines. Hospitals will open up so that the vaccinated sheeple who need other medical procedures can get them and insurance rates will decrease because there won't be so many covid claims.

Insurers are adapting.
Kroger's just stopped paid off time for COVID for the unvaccinated and instituted a $50/month surchage on premiums.

I would expect the industry will move to charging much higher premiums soon-ish.

If omicron hits as hard as it looks like it might, expect ER triage that looks very hard at outcomes based on vaccination status and comorbidities.
Could be a brutal reenactment of the story with the manger.

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2 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Insurers are adapting.
Kroger's just stopped paid off time for COVID for the unvaccinated and instituted a $50/month surchage on premiums.

I would expect the industry will move to charging much higher premiums soon-ish.

If omicron hits as hard as it looks like it might, expect ER triage that looks very hard at outcomes based on vaccination status and comorbidities.
Could be a brutal reenactment of the story with the manger.

 

This country pretty much went away from charging higher premiums for pre existing conditions. What you are talking about can rightly be described a pre existing condition.

So when are we going to start charging more for Obesity? Heart disease? Smoker status? 

And what about honoring that hippocratic oath. Maybe hire more health care workers instead of laying them off? Maybe work to ensure an actual workable supply of  monoclonal antibodies and anti virals? 

The new head of the EU stated almost verbatim that democracy can't be a small group of people with one size fits all solutions for everyone. We are 2 years in on the one size fits all approach to this virus. Let's try to harder. Let's try better. If our hospitals are over run by what Marty Makary has called "Omicold" that is a pox on all of us.

We are better than this. 

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57 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

In the follow up consultations we met multiple times w/ their chief brain surgeon who suggested my brothers and I get an MRA because these can be hereditary. For about one half of one second I thought about correcting him because I've learned from watching TV that it's really an MRI. The thing is that I caught myself and didn't correct him because he's the friggin head of brain surgery at UPenn, I immediately realized that he knows more than me. I

Not sure if you're saying he was right but it's a good thing you didn't say anything.

What is difference between MRI and MRA?
Both an MRI and MRA are noninvasive and painless diagnostic tools used to view tissues, bones, or organs inside the body. An MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) creates detailed images of organs and tissues. An MRA (magnetic resonance angiography) focuses more on the blood vessels than the tissue surrounding it.Aug 22, 2018
 
 
Image result for m.r.a.

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20 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

This country pretty much went away from charging higher premiums for pre existing conditions. What you are talking about can rightly be described a pre existing condition.

So when are we going to start charging more for Obesity? Heart disease? Smoker status?

The ACA allows for insurance companies to charge smokers up to 50% more (or premiums that are 1.5 times higher) than non-smokers through a tobacco surcharge.

Nurses are quitting due to burnout.

Latest data regarding omicron shows that there is no decrease in disease severity.

Also, 'pre-existing conditions' refers to conditions that existed in the insured prior to acquiring insurance and wouldn't be applicable here.
 

 

Edited by Mike Parrish
...

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15 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

The ACA allows for insurance companies to charge smokers up to 50% more (or premiums that are 1.5 times higher) than non-smokers through a tobacco surcharge.

Nurses are quitting due to burnout.

Latest data regarding omicron shows that there is no decrease in disease severity.

I watched multiple docs this morning say that Omicron data out of South Africa - which both cited as being very transparent and detailed - showed lesser severity. I realize they have a younger population, but both docs also said they don't have enough data on US. 

I am aware of nurse burnout, but many of those that show up as having quit are actually now simply "travelling" or "per diem" for multiple reasons. One, many have avoided mandates this way, and two, the per diem pay in Philadelphia is now averaging about $130 per hour. Most long term employed nurses in Phila. make less than half that much.

Did not know about ACA and smoking, so thank you for that information.

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9 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I watched multiple docs this morning say that Omicron data out of South Africa - which both cited as being very transparent and detailed - showed lesser severity. I realize they have a younger population, but both docs also said they don't have enough data on US. 

I am aware of nurse burnout, but many of those that show up as having quit are actually now simply "travelling" or "per diem" for multiple reasons. One, many have avoided mandates this way, and two, the per diem pay in Philadelphia is now averaging about $130 per hour. Most long term employed nurses in Phila. make less than half that much.

Did not know about ACA and smoking, so thank you for that information.

Look for newer data from Denmark on omicron severity.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/18/omicron-variant-denmark/

They have much better infrastructure for this task than South Africa.

 

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Update-on-COVID-19-Projections_English_2021.12.16.pdf

 

 

Screenshot 2021-12-19 at 15-46-33 Update on COVID-19 Projections - Update-on-COVID-19-Projections_English_2021 12 16 pdf.png

Edited by Mike Parrish

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

 

By this logic we should question authority. Not just the authority you disagree with either. 

Try looking up what "argument from authority" is before making snide remarks.

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18 minutes ago, klehner said:

Try looking up what "argument from authority" is before making snide remarks.

I know what it is, and my comment stands despite your semantic push. When I suggest that people question authority I am saying that trusting science and trusting authority are two different things, despite Lord Fauci thinking that he himself is science. 

This is directly from wikipedia:

Use in science[edit]

Scientific knowledge is best established by evidence and experiment rather than argued through authority[16][17][18] as authority has no place in science.[17][19][20] Carl Sagan wrote of arguments from authority:

One of the great commandments of science is, "Mistrust arguments from authority." ... Too many such arguments have proved too painfully wrong. Authorities must prove their contentions like everybody else.[21]

 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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When did making medical decisions for yourself become selfish? 
 

What are the chances you’ll be hospitalized if you’re involved in an auto accident at 85+ mph, compared to being hospitalized from Covid? How many of the thousands of people I see driving those speeds are so altruistic that they feel entitled to shame/insult people who choose differently regarding vaccines?

When will people of every political stripe stop trying to use the coercive power of the government to force others to live according to “approved” norms?

I applaud anyone, wrestlers included, who stand up to mandates/policies/regulations that are adopted out of fear and sacrifice freedom. 

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10 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

When did making medical decisions for yourself become selfish? 
 

What are the chances you’ll be hospitalized if you’re involved in an auto accident at 85+ mph, compared to being hospitalized from Covid? How many of the thousands of people I see driving those speeds are so altruistic that they feel entitled to shame/insult people who choose differently regarding vaccines?

When will people of every political stripe stop trying to use the coercive power of the government to force others to live according to “approved” norms?

I applaud anyone, wrestlers included, who stand up to mandates/policies/regulations that are adopted out of fear and sacrifice freedom. 

 

I watched a Johns Hopkins virologist state flatly he could make the data for any virus appear to be the leading edge of a pandemic if he wanted to. Then all he'd need is for people to simply fall in line and accept it. 

The charts that came out of Denmark are what they are, but they contain a lot of "projections". The "projections" used at the front end of Covid had "authorities" calling for square blocks in cities in Pennsylvania be converted to outdoor medical facilities. That never came to pass. It was more like fear mongering than anything else. 

Calling people "selfish" is what is also done all the time in China. There the collective rules ... and the individual and all those pesky liberties they cherish just go away. 

Edited by TBar1977
added clarity

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The charts that came out of Denmark are what they are, but they contain a lot of "projections".

That particular chart has no projections.

It's a visual representation of the data they've collected.

 

Try reading the whole pdf I posted... or not.

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I don’t want to get into it tonight but as a general point, remember that projections for disease are different than something like weather. There’s feedback in a disease projection. If it’s gonna rain on Tuesday it’s gonna rain if I say it will or won’t as a forecaster. If I say a disease will cause X deaths, and a governor goes oh crap, that projection can change the outcome via NPI etc and make my projection look wrong or alarmist. 

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Just now, Mike Parrish said:

That particular chart has no projections.

It's a visual representation of the data they've collected.

 

Try reading the whole pdf I posted... or not.

I did look at the pdf, that is how I said there are "projections in there. There are.

Also, that specific chart shows "admissions" but does not provide context. The context would be important. Is someone in "for covid" or simply "with covid". Is the average stay 2 days or 22 days? 

I saw other charts for ICU beds, but are they all for covid? Probably not, so what is the percentage and can more beds be made available? 

And what about starting to focus on treatments that are known to be effective instead of almost exclusively shutting down? What we are doing is going around in circles. Aren't you tired of this already? We can and should be better than this. 

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I'm amazed at the mistrust of science in our country.  Let's do a little thought experiment:

We take a bunch of people who are in the "distrusting science", everybody's opinion is equal camp, and show them two airplanes.  One airplane was designed by a bunch of Aeronautical Engineers with a lot of letters after their names, led by Professional Engineers who had subsequently gotten into management.  The other airplane was designed by a bunch of average Joes and Joans, led by somebody with a BA in Bus Ad.  Both groups say their planes are equally airworthy.  Now we ask the anti-science people which plane they want to fly in.  I think this puts things in perspective.

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3 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Look for newer data from Denmark on omicron severity.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/18/omicron-variant-denmark/

They have much better infrastructure for this task than South Africa.

https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Update-on-COVID-19-Projections_English_2021.12.16.pdf

 

 

That document has a lot of charts regarding South Africa's epi center for Omicron, but the data therein is vastly different from data coming from South Africa itself which paints a far, far less dire picture. So you write that Denmark has better infrastructure for this task than South Africa. I assume you mean South Africa does a poor job of assessing what is going on in ........... well, South Africa. That they need the smart people in Denmark to explain it to them, I suppose.

Excuse me if I don't think the South Africans need the Danes (or the USA)  to explain this all to them. They aren't exactly uneducated and they don't need special Danish infrastructure to report data and analyze it when the data is their own data. They have enough sense to collect it in the first place, so I am sure they can analyze it as well. 

Here is an article from 2 days ago (Bloomberg) quoting their health ministers and citing data direct from South Africa. I will copy and paste some snippets. Your direction to not trust South Africa and to trust Denmark on South Africa data seems misplaced.

Omicron infections may have peaked in epicenter Gauteng

Only 1.7% of identified Covid-19 cases were admitted to hospital in the second week of infections in the fourth wave, compared with 19% in the same week of the third delta-driven wave, South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at a press conference.

Health officials presented evidence that the strain may be milder, and that infections may already be peaking in the country’s most populous province, Gauteng.

Currently there are about 7,600 people with Covid-19 in South African hospitals, about 40% of the peak in the second and third waves.

Excess deaths, a measure of the number of deaths against a historical average, are just below 2,000 a week, an eighth of their previous peak.

The number of Covid-19 hospitalizations in this wave is also being inflated by the fact that milder patients are being admitted because there is room to accommodate them. Many are there for other complaints but are routinely tested, according to health officials.

“We have seen a decrease in a proportion of people who need to be on oxygen,” Jassat said at the press conference. “They are at very low levels.”

There was also further evidence that the crest of infections may have already passed in Tshwane, the municipal area in Gauteng that includes the capital Pretoria.

A wastewater analysis carried out by the South African Medical Research Council for the week ended Dec. 10 showed a declining proportion of viral particles for two successive weeks at the plant that treats water draining from central Pretoria.

South Africa, which announced the discovery of the variant on Nov. 25, is being watched as a harbinger of what may happen with omicron elsewhere.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-17/s-africa-says-hospitalizations-in-omicron-wave-much-lower

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2 hours ago, potentiallydangerous said:

Our government is a bunch of corrupt liars.

Big pharma is a bunch of corrupt liars.

The media are a bunch of corrupt liars.

Science and medical research, unfortunately, have been politicized and are now made up of just a bunch of corrupt liars.

Those of you who want to force everyone to be vaccinated should stand in front of the mirror every morning and recite the following: "I (state your name) am a brainwashed, gullible fool."

In all seriousness, in a difficult situation where lives are at stake and decisions need to be made:

  • The easiest thing to do is to be a critic - call out everybody as incompetent. Label people, call them names, imply you know better. Contribute nothing yourself. Can't fail.
    (Sound familiar, yes, we endured years of it)
  • The hardest thing to do is to be an author - come up with a plan to deal with the situation as best you can and execute that plan. You're on a limb, it can fail.
    (Where we find ourselves right now)

There is no point in listening to critics who have no plan. They contribute nothing other than negativity toward everyone else.

 

PD, if you have a better plan, I think most of us would be interested in hearing it.

Edited by GreatWhiteNorth

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