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Wrestleknownothing

More NCAA titles than HS titles

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2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

OK, so here is the compiled answers to questions #3 and #4, so far. I sorted by NCAA Titles, World Titles and then HS Titles. I put World Titles second in the sort in spite of the fact that I did not include that in my original questions/criteria, but it fits the broader context of better results at a more difficult level.

A couple observations:

  1. Baumgartner from zero High School titles to thirteen World Titles just doesn't seem possible, and yet here we are.
  2. Ed Ruth has the biggest spread from High School to NCAA with +3.
  3. While John William Smith won the same number of High School as NCAA titles I kept him on the list because of the World success. (So sue me.)
  4. John Peterson makes the list too. (The lawsuit grows.)
  5. I did not include the international wrestlers as High School titles are not a concept in their case. (More litigants.)
  6. I did not include the pre-High School championship era for the same reason as the international wrestlers. (The lawsuit can now be a class action.)

 

Wrestler HS Titles NCAA Titles World Titles
Kyle Dake 2 4 4
Lee Kemp 2 3 3
Mark Schultz 1 3 3
Tom Brands 1 3 2
Greg Jones 1 3 0
Carlton Haselrig 1 3 0
Mark Churella 1 3 0
Ed Ruth  0 3 0
Jordan Burroughs 1 2 9
John William Smith 2 2 6
Chris Campbell 1 2 3
Ben Peterson 0 2 2
Jake Herbert 1 2 1
Stephen Neal 0 2 1
Gabe Dean 1 2 0
Ryan Bertin 1 2 0
Tony Nelson 1 2 0
Darryl Burley 1 2 0
Pat Milkovich 1 2 0
Dan St. John 0 2 0
Pat Santoro 0 2 0
Chuck Yagla 0 2 0
Bruce Baumgartner 0 1 13
Ron Jeidy 0 1 0
Keith Gavin 0 1 0
Brock Lesnar 0 1 0
Phil Davis 0 1 0
John Fritz 0 1 0
Matt Reiss 0 1 0
Russ Hellickson 1 0 3
John Peterson 0 0 2

 

Thank you one and all for creating this list.

I appreciate your efforts to make me know something (futile as they may be).

Great job. Very good list.

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13 minutes ago, portajohn said:

@Wrestleknownothing great list.  After transferring out of PA Ed Ruth did win a Prep Nat championship at Blair academy.  I'm assuming Prep Nationals has to get counted as a HS titles.

I thought about including that, but in the end I did not. However, I don't have a real good reason for that. It was mostly down to my not understanding the equivalency.

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10 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I thought about including that, but in the end I did not. However, I don't have a real good reason for that. It was mostly down to my not understanding the equivalency.

It's obviously not a state title, but it's probably better than all but a few state titles.

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16 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I thought about including that, but in the end I did not. However, I don't have a real good reason for that. It was mostly down to my not understanding the equivalency.

Problem is if Prep Nats aren't included there are a whole bunch of wrestlers that will need to be included to your list. Quite a few from Blair alone.  And as NJ Dan mentioned Preps are harder than most state tournaments out there.

Edited by portajohn

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29 minutes ago, portajohn said:

Problem is if Prep Nats aren't included there are a whole bunch of wrestlers that will need to be included to your list. Quite a few from Blair alone.  And as NJ Dan mentioned Preps are harder than most state tournaments out there.

You are right about Blair-- it does not compete for NJ state titles. There are some private schools that compete at states and at the Prep Nationals. IIRC, Mack Lewnes won 4 Maryland state title and two Nat Prep titles. 

There are also private schools that compete at their state tournament, but not at Preps, even though they'd be successful at Preps. St. Edwards is a good example.

But I guess if a wrestler never competed for a state title and did not win one for that reason, he should not be on the list (just as Japanese wrestlers are not on the list).

Edited by NJDan

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2 hours ago, NJDan said:

You are right about Blair-- it does not compete for NJ state titles. There are some private schools that compete at states and at the Prep Nationals. IIRC, Mack Lewnes won 4 Maryland state title and two Nat Prep titles. 

There are also private schools that compete at their state tournament, but not at Preps, even though they'd be successful at Preps. St. Edwards is a good example.

But I guess if a wrestler never competed for a state title and did not win one for that reason, he should not be on the list (just as Japanese wrestlers are not on the list).

The Md titles are the Prep States. Md has two state events. Both about the same size.

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Edw Ruth's title at preps should likely count as a state title.

Pat Santoro's should not count as a state title, it was a PG year

Mark Lieberman 3 national prep titles should count as state titles, so a no for him.

Mike Lieberman had no national prep titles, But he did have NJ Prep Titles. One would think that title would be as tough say Alabama or S Carolina titles prior to 1972. 

So?

Gimp? 

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Probably there were other guys with Dual Citizenship. 

It is not like the TV doctor whose Turkish citizenship he is so important to him that he served in their army, not ours. Of Course he votes and is running for senator in a state of which he has never been a legal resident.

 

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

The Md titles are the Prep States. Md has two state events. Both about the same size.

Seems like we are both right: "The 160-pound senior completed a stellar career by winning his fourth straight Maryland Interscholastic Athletic Association and the Maryland Independent Schools tournament titles, as well as his second championship at the National Prep Wrestling Championships."  https://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-va.wrestler22mar22-story.html

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5 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Seems like we are both right: "The 160-pound senior completed a stellar career by winning his fourth straight Maryland Interscholastic Athletic Association and the Maryland Independent Schools tournament titles, as well as his second championship at the National Prep Wrestling Championships."  https://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-va.wrestler22mar22-story.html

Nope. The public school association is called maryland public secondary schools athletic association

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Nope. The public school association is called maryland public secondary schools athletic association

So you are saying he won two "Maryland" tournaments with different names and both are for private schools?

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8 minutes ago, NJDan said:

So you are saying he won two "Maryland" tournaments with different names and both are for private schools?

I'm saying neither of those are the public states. You figure out the rest.

 

Other than to say that apparently there are at least 3 Md assns named something like state.

Edited by gimpeltf

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59 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Seems like we are both right: "The 160-pound senior completed a stellar career by winning his fourth straight Maryland Interscholastic Athletic Association and the Maryland Independent Schools tournament titles, as well as his second championship at the National Prep Wrestling Championships."  https://www.baltimoresun.com/bal-va.wrestler22mar22-story.html

the Maryland Interscholastic Athletic Association (MIAA) is a conference of the Baltimore area preps

The Maryland Independent Schools (MIS) tournament is the Maryland State Tournament for prep schools, combining the Balt area preps with the MD preps that are in the -Washington DC Metro Area conference (schools such as DeMatha, Bullis, etc)

Gimp is correct that the public schools in MD have a separate state tournament governed by the "maryland public secondary schools athletic association" (MPSSAA)

Edited by gromit

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