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BAC

Flo's top 20 US Wrestlers

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2 hours ago, BAC said:

LOL.  Maybe stick to Twitter if you get lost after 280 characters?

I'm all for looking out for the little guy, but not going to support affirmative action for small school products in a top-100 all-time wrestler list.

you've already acknowledged this point, but for the purposes of theatrics I'll point out than I am not in favor of affirmative action for people who flo bros like to brag about getting texts from. 

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Curious how you'd rank him (in folkstyle) against the 5 lightweights who did make that 75th team:  Abas, Smith, Uetake, Brands and Gable?
Will check out that podcast. 

Matt Dernlan (get well soon buddy!) and I did this on the Rudis Podcast prior to COVID shutting the season down.

Here’s the link where I make the case. Matt and I re-did the 75th Team using its criteria and then we updated it and did a 90th team on future episodes adding the timeframe since that was released.

Links:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/rudiswrestling/rudis-wrestling-podcast-141-breaking-dow

https://www.spreaker.com/user/rudiswrestling/152-naming-a-90th-anniversary-team-light

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:


Matt Dernlan (get well soon buddy!) and I did this on the Rudis Podcast prior to COVID shutting the season down.

Here’s the link where I make the case. Matt and I re-did the 75th Team using its criteria and then we updated it and did a 90th team on future episodes adding the timeframe since that was released.

Links:

https://www.spreaker.com/user/rudiswrestling/rudis-wrestling-podcast-141-breaking-dow

https://www.spreaker.com/user/rudiswrestling/152-naming-a-90th-anniversary-team-light

Thanks for this.  I didn't remember that Simons wasn't even on the 75th Team ballot.  Can't really blame fickle fans for that one -- that's entirely the NCAA dropping the ball.  I think its debatable whether he's a top 5 collegiate lightweight, but to not include him in the pool of guys that fans could vote on is pretty absurd.

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19 hours ago, BAC said:

I'm not defending Flo's list or all of their methodologies, but I do think they were fairly consistent in making this an internationally focused list.  The vast majority of guys on the list have at least one world-level medal to their credit, with only a handful of spots left over for the folkstyle-only crowd.  And I see nothing wrong with doing an internationally-focused list, as there's no shortage of collegiate all-time lists.

To your point, Metcalf Zain and Guerrero have no world-level medals, but each did make multiple world-level teams, and they also comprise the bottom of the list (98-100).  Bill Koll comes in a little higher at 92, but besides being unbeaten in college, he did take 5th at the Olympics.  

I'm not saying Simons doesn't have a claim, as he made two Olympic teams besides being a D1 3xer, though he didn't medal in either.  I'd have no quarrel with anyone choosing him over Metcalf/Zain/Guerrero, or maybe some of the other non-medalists that made the lower part of the list (Askren, Koll, Mills, Schalles, P. Smith), or some of the lesser choices in Women's (which should have been a separate list IMO) or Greco. There's definitely a recency bias at play in Flo's list which hurts a guy like Simons, but since he never medaled its hard to put him that high in an internationally focused list.

Not so sure about Haselrig though.  I had the pleasure of watching him compete and he was amazing, but he didn't compete internationally (though he'd have been a force if he did).  I can't think of a good reason to pick him over all the many other 3x D1 champs to not make the list (e.g. Ruth, Dieringer, Bonomo, Zalesky, Caruso, Churella, Lee, Jones, Nickal, Nolf, Roderick, Hutton, etc etc).  And that's without getting into the Olympic champions of yesteryear that seemingly didn't make the list unless they're in the top 20 (e.g. Brand, McCann, Wells ... though come to think of it, since apparently Uetake isn't in Flo's top 20, its probably Wells).

If your argument is that Simons and Haselrig are superior because they are 6x champs (since they won NAIA/D2 the same year they won D1s), sorry, I'm going to have to disagree that NAIA/D2 championships add anything meaningful to their credentials.  What 3xer wouldn't also be a 6xer if they too had to go through DII/III/NIAA first?  And no one wants to have Marcus LeVesseur dragged into this conversation.  :)

 

What about Joe Colon, he has a World Medal 2018. More then the guys you are asking why Ruth, Dieringer, Bonomo, Zalesky, Caruso, Churella, Lee,Jones, Nickal, Nolf, Roderick, Hutton, etc etc). are they not on the rankings.  Because they haven’t done what Joe Colon accomplished .

He went there hurt and still won a World Medal . Wait till Joe comes back 100% , Joe been 65-70%. Can’t wait!! 

Edited by Grave
For got some information

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Well now that we are down to the final ten, my guess the following will be in on the list. However I don’t know what order though. But I think it’s going to be Baumgartner, Smith, Burroughs, Snyder, Dake, Kemp, Gable, Sanderson, Gray, and Maroulis. My pick for number one has to be Big Bruce, 13 World, and Olympic Medals is a massive achievement.  

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It's absurd to put men and women on the same list. They don't compete with each other. And the level of competition that women face is tiny to compared to the level men face. That's just a fact.

You could make the same statement about today’s wrestlers vs, oh, guys from the 1960s.

The level in the US, to me at least, looks way, way higher than it was 30/40/50/60 years ago. But I’m not discounting guys from the 80s who beat all comers; they were great relative to their competition, and that’s all we have.


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51 minutes ago, NJDan said:

It's absurd to put men and women on the same list. They don't compete with each other. And the level of competition that women face is tiny to compared to the level men face. That's just a fact.

I mean you would NEVER see a list of the 100 best basketball players that combines Lebron James and Jordan with Sue Bird and Deanna Taurasi.

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On 12/29/2021 at 11:25 PM, BAC said:

Thanks for this.  I didn't remember that Simons wasn't even on the 75th Team ballot.  Can't really blame fickle fans for that one -- that's entirely the NCAA dropping the ball.  I think its debatable whether he's a top 5 collegiate lightweight, but to not include him in the pool of guys that fans could vote on is pretty absurd.

It's absolutely debatable, which is why we debated it on the show. Did he got slighted because the NCAA didn't take into consideration the four titles won in a different organization, whereas Haselrig gets that push by the NCAA because his titles were all NCAA titles, not the "other" organization's? 

Even with NCAA stats, a 3x champion, one loss and it was to the champion the year before at a higher weight. If you applied today's logic to Gray, he's a slam dunk in my wholly biased opinion here. But if debating Gray and looking at his stats with an unbiased eye, he's tough to argue against with JUST his college stats. Even though he never medaled in the Games, he was a victim of the old black mark system - eliminated in one of those Games even though he never lost a bout.

He was pre-Gable (and pre NCAA freshman eligibility), which to me, would also put him into a different grouping of eras. 

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9 hours ago, NJDan said:

It's absurd to put men and women on the same list. They don't compete with each other. And the level of competition that women face is tiny to compared to the level men face. That's just a fact.

I think it does a disservice to both genders to put them together in the same rankings. To me, it’s not that they don’t compete with each other, nor is it a gender difference issue, it’s that one is an emerging sport and one is not.

From the male perspective, it’s hard to see all these legendary collegiate wrestlers who spent a lifetime in the sport be left off the list, while ladies with a tiny fraction of their wrestling knowledge make it. Not that it’s their fault, but they know less because it’s a new sport:  Some of the women on the list won their world titles at a time where the total number of female wrestlers in the country could fit inside a single gymnasium. Even now there are barely any D1 opportunities for women, but why is that a reason to deny ranking recognition to so many 2-3x D1 male champs, and why leave out so many male Olympic champions from the sport’s first 50 years while ranking women who are relative newcomers?

From the female perspective, the rankings are grading women on a negative curve, denying women their due. Take Tricia Saunders: despite her 4 world level titles, she didn’t even make the top 20, behind guys with 1, 2 and 3 titles. The guys with 4 or more level titles are going to be in the top 3. How is that fair? It isn’t the women’s fault the sport is new, or that there aren’t kiddie wresting programs for girls, or D1 collegiate opportunities for girls — they are making the most of what few opportunities they are given, and still getting penalized for it.

I like that Flo is trying to be inclusive, but the better approach is to judge men against their peers, and women against their peers.

Edited by BAC

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3 hours ago, BAC said:

I like that Flo is trying to be inclusive, but the better approach is to judge men against their peers, and women against their peers.

Flo has always been this way, but so has Track.

Track's rankings have always mixed the boys and girls as well.

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On 12/31/2021 at 1:33 AM, JasonBryant said:

 

It's absolutely debatable, which is why we debated it on the show. Did he got slighted because the NCAA didn't take into consideration the four titles won in a different organization, whereas Haselrig gets that push by the NCAA because his titles were all NCAA titles, not the "other" organization's? 

Even with NCAA stats, a 3x champion, one loss and it was to the champion the year before at a higher weight. If you applied today's logic to Gray, he's a slam dunk in my wholly biased opinion here. But if debating Gray and looking at his stats with an unbiased eye, he's tough to argue against with JUST his college stats. Even though he never medaled in the Games, he was a victim of the old black mark system - eliminated in one of those Games even though he never lost a bout.

He was pre-Gable (and pre NCAA freshman eligibility), which to me, would also put him into a different grouping of eras. 

If cael had gone right into coaching in march 2002 those bozos would have crowbarred him into the top tier anyway.

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On 1/4/2022 at 1:50 PM, Silhouette94 said:

I'd rank Mensah-Stock higher

Who would you put her ahead of?  Tom Brands?  David Taylor?  Kevin Jackson?  Rulon Gardner?  Kenny Monday?  Because those are the guys ahead of TMS on Flo's list.

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There's two things that were obviously important to those making this list (anyone saying anything about it is absurd or whatever is taking it way too seriously)

Recency obviously carried some weight.  As well as it appears impact.  And that in particular is where a lot of the women come into play.  

 

The people who came up with it and put the work in to create these ten episodes so we can sit here and talk about how much idiots they are...labled this the 'greatest', not the 'best'.  I've always felt there was a slight difference between the two (Barry Sanders was the best, Emmitt Smith was the greatest).  And impact on your sport certainly falls into the greatest side of the evaluations.

Edited by Lurker

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13 minutes ago, Lurker said:

There's two things that were obviously important to those making this list (anyone saying anything about it is absurd or whatever is taking it way too seriously)

Recency obviously carried some weight.  As well as it appears impact.  And that in particular is where a lot of the women come into play.  

 

The people who came up with it and put the work in to create these ten episodes so we can sit here and talk about how much idiots they are...labled this the 'greatest', not the 'best'.  I've always felt there was a slight difference between the two (Barry Sanders was the best, Emmitt Smith was the greatest).  And impact on your sport certainly falls into the greatest side of the evaluations.

Yeah but aren't you confusing impact with "relevance to geo political trends" for women and "changing the whole sport with innovation in technique and tactics" for men?

Its like your saying "greatest" makes this a polticial list. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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