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Flo's top 20 US Wrestlers

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27 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah but aren't you confusing impact with "relevance to geo political trends" for women and "changing the whole sport with innovation in technique and tactics" for men?

Its like your saying "greatest" makes this a polticial list. 

No no no.  Either you misinterpreted or I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.  But I assure you there is nothing political about what I'm saying, geo or otherwise.

The growth of women's wrestling has had a huge impact on the sport of wrestling.  Without it, there is no more Olympic wrestling.  That's just one of the top highlights, the reasons go on and on.  The women listed here have had a major impact on women's wrestling here in the United States. I feel like that impact factors in when talking about 'greatest'.  If we were making a p4p list of the best wrestlers of all time, then no, no women would be on justifiably on it.  

Just saying I think its perfectly appropriate to have women on the list, and why I think...

 

Edit to say.....Certainly there are some women ahead of some men that I wouldn't have, but I don't think we would ever find two people on the whole planet that would come up with the exact same order top 100 list.

Edited by Lurker

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18 minutes ago, Lurker said:

No no no.  Either you misinterpreted or I didn't do a good job of explaining myself.  But I assure you there is nothing political about what I'm saying, geo or otherwise.

The growth of women's wrestling has had a huge impact on the sport of wrestling.  Without it, there is no more Olympic wrestling.  That's just one of the top highlights, the reasons go on and on.  The women listed here have had a major impact on women's wrestling here in the United States. I feel like that impact factors in when talking about 'greatest'.  If we were making a p4p list of the best wrestlers of all time, then no, no women would be on justifiably on it.  

Just saying I think its perfectly appropriate to have women on the list, and why I think...

It reads to me like you think people should be elevated in the context of "greatness" based on thier relevance to the sport.

Its my take that they shouldn't be elevated based on thier relevance to the opinions of greedy, cowardly, bureaucrats at the NCAA and IOC...so there be 2 lists.

Edited by hammerlockthree

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

it was pointed out but ranking the men alongside women is stupid....

Agree with you that there should be 2 separate lists. 

Silhouette made the comment after those posts though.

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8 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

It reads to me like you think people should be elevated in the context of "greatness" based on thier relevance to the sport.

Its my take that they shouldn't be elevated based on thier relevance to the opinions of greedy, cowardly, bureaucrats at the NCAA and IOC...so there be 2 lists.

I'm simply saying it certainly appeared to factor in to the people who made the list, and I'm perfectly fine with that.  And also laughing at the people throwing around words like "idiots" and "absurd", while 100% buying in to the whole purpose those absurd idiots made such a list.  Where you see the relevance of women's wrestling and where I see it our different, and that's fine.  

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Just now, Lurker said:

I'm simply saying it certainly appeared to factor in to the people who made the list, and I'm perfectly fine with that.  And also laughing at the people throwing around words like "idiots" and "absurd", while 100% buying in to the whole purpose those absurd idiots made such a list.  Where you see the relevance of women's wrestling and where I see it our different, and that's fine.  

I'm down with it being frivolous of me to bash the Flo bros for making a list, but they annoy me so I do it anyway.

I don't think think we have a difference of opinion on womens wrestling, i think you're just a bit more of realist than I am. 

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1 minute ago, hammerlockthree said:

I'm down with it being frivolous of me to bash the Flo bros for making a list, but they annoy me so I do it anyway.

I don't think think we have a difference of opinion on womens wrestling, i think you're just a bit more of realist than I am. 

Probably bore out of my being a Cowboys fan.  Barry was the better runner, so I had to come up with something for Emmitt....

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We wanted to include all styles and genders in the list so we could be inclusive and celebrate as much American wrestling history as possible. 

Breaking out different lists men and women or for different styles is a possibility and may be a project for the future. Doing it this way though ensures more eyeballs on all the different facets of the sport. 

And the conversation and disagreements is also part of it. There was much disagreement inside the office. My personal top 10 would looks different then what's being released at midnight tonight. It's not a super serious thing but if people want to take it that way, its cool too. Hopefully it inspired some folks to produce alternative top 100s so we can compare and contrast and keep the conversation going.

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10 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

We wanted to include all styles and genders in the list so we could be inclusive and celebrate as much American wrestling history as possible. 

Breaking out different lists men and women or for different styles is a possibility and may be a project for the future. Doing it this way though ensures more eyeballs on all the different facets of the sport. 

And the conversation and disagreements is also part of it. There was much disagreement inside the office. My personal top 10 would looks different then what's being released at midnight tonight. It's not a super serious thing but if people want to take it that way, its cool too. Hopefully it inspired some folks to produce alternative top 100s so we can compare and contrast and keep the conversation going.

you do an excellent job representing yourself and Flo on here.

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I'd like to see Adeline wrestle one of the guys on this list.  Put them on the same list, let them compete against each other.

Need separate lists.

Flo is the worst thing to happen to this sport.

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27 minutes ago, Crash said:

I'd like to see Adeline wrestle one of the guys on this list.  Put them on the same list, let them compete against each other.

Need separate lists.

Flo is the worst thing to happen to this sport.

Not trying to come off as a jerk, but forget the guys on the Flo 100 list.  She would get smashed by a 160 pound HS state champion boy from practically any state.

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I’m logged in on my phone on the Flowrestling site.  How do I find these rankings?

I can’t find it under the ‘rankings’ tab.  It isn’t ‘news’ but I did look there.  Is there an article?

——

I found it — had to scroll a bunch.  They really could do better in organizing stuff on their site

Edited by nom

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On 1/5/2022 at 10:08 PM, hammerlockthree said:

you do an excellent job representing yourself and Flo on here.

Agree and kudos for saying so despite your feelings toward Flo.

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17 hours ago, nom said:

I’m logged in on my phone on the Flowrestling site.  How do I find these rankings?

I can’t find it under the ‘rankings’ tab.  It isn’t ‘news’ but I did look there.  Is there an article?

——

I found it — had to scroll a bunch.  They really could do better in organizing stuff on their site

That is one of the great understatements ever.

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On 1/5/2022 at 9:58 PM, Jaroslav Hasek said:

Breaking out different lists men and women or for different styles is a possibility and may be a project for the future. Doing it this way though ensures more eyeballs on all the different facets of the sport. 

That's the only rationale I can think of that has any legitimacy:  we're trying to grow the sport of wrestling, so mixing their rankings in with the women is going to get them more exposure, as a separate women's list will get fewer clicks.  The same rationale as interweaving the men's/women's matches at World level events.

But ... I still don't like it because, unlike interweaving matches, it pits men against women -- and does so without any objective criteria for doing so. 

In some sports you can pull it off.  For example, in swimming it could be done, because even though the best woman's times wouldn't qualify her for the male team, to account for gender differences you just count up the number of medals, and you've got a pretty objective basis for comparison.  But how do you weigh world medals where the sport is well-developed on the men's side but very young among women?  And how do you make college achievements part of the criterial, when men have had that opportunity and women haven't?

Some are going to be scratching their heads and wondering in what possible world is Helen Maroulis a greater wrestler than Gable or Cael.  They're not wrong, as I suspect Helen would readily acknowledge she hasn't acquired nearly the wrestling knowledge that they have.  But that's not her fault:  its a newer sport with limited opportunities, so you can only judge her against her peers.  And that's done by counting up world medals, in which case Helen's ahead.  But Flo's not consistent about it.  They're going to face claims of gender bias since Adeline is at #9 and Saunders at #23, despite both having more world golds than anyone but Smith and JB.  So much for counting up medals. 

They might be able to defend it by "discounting" the value of a women's gold vs. a men's gold in light of the relative infancy of women's wrestling.  They can even claim consistency by pointing to the number of pre-WWII men's Olympic gold medalists who were omitted from the top 100 (including a 2x'er):  that is, the medals of male pioneers of the sport counted for less too.  But is that where Flo wants to be?  Now you're saying:  sorry ladies, your gold isn't worth as much as a man's. Sorry Adeline, you have the same number of golds as Smith/JB, but JB will pass Smith if he gets 7, while you only pass Smith if you get 12.  Even though the women, like the men, can only beat who you put in front of them, and aren't at fault for their gender's lack of opportunities.

I'm all for cross-promoting the sport, but I feel like this is pitting men and women against each other in an unfair way.  What's done is done but I hope in the future Flo keeps the wrestler comparisons separated by gender.

Edited by BAC

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Appreciate the feedback but I think you're reading too much into it @BAC People are going to look at it like a competition because its wrestling but it's just an excuse to talk about all great wrestlers in American history. the list and ranking is a starting off point, not a final conclusion. from our 100 starts the many different conversations about who was greater. that the term is so nebulous and has little objective qualifications to it is a plus. more opinions which causes more discussions which allows fan to learn more about American wrestling history! which, again, is the whole point of the endeavor. 

otherwise we'd just be listing most medals or best NCAA finishes or whatever the criteria was. there's a place for that. record books and stats and almanacs are great. I pour over them all the time. that's just not what this is. 

and I thought Adeline's tweet about the top 100 was awesome. showed she was interested in it! we had zero expectations that everyone would be 100% satisfied with our rankings. that would be impossible. no such list exists!

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7 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

Appreciate the feedback but I think you're reading too much into it @BAC 

Yeah probably.  Enjoyed the videos.  Thx!

Edited by BAC

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On 12/30/2021 at 10:53 PM, NJDan said:

I mean you would NEVER see a list of the 100 best basketball players that combines Lebron James and Jordan with Sue Bird and Deanna Taurasi.

Well in 1999 ESPN ranked the top 100 athletes of the century which included men, women and horses - https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html

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On 1/7/2022 at 11:06 AM, hammerlockthree said:

uh oh now Grey is going after them on twitter...

Grey is so out of touch with reality.  If she watched videos of herself wrestling and compared them to the guys listed ahead of her, she would realize that she was extremely lucky to be put at #9.  She's insane to think she deserves to be higher than Lee Kemp (#10) and David Taylor (#15), much less the 8 people ranked ahead of her.  

Edited by ShakaAloha

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2 hours ago, ShakaAloha said:

Grey is so out of touch with reality.  If she watched videos of herself wrestling and compared them to the guys listed ahead of her, she would realize that she was extremely lucky to be put at #9.  She's insane to think she deserves to be higher than Lee Kemp (#10) and David Taylor (#15), much less the 8 people ranked ahead of her.  

I think she might actually be mad maurolis is ahead of her.....

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