Flo's top 20 US Wrestlers

[ShakaAloha 426]

9 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I think she might actually be mad maurolis is ahead of her.....

Makes sense if Adeline's beef is with Flo putting Helen over her.  However, she's still crazy.  Helen has an Olympic gold over the second greatest female wrestler of all time.  Adeline does not have an Olympic gold.

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

Just now, ShakaAloha said:

Makes sense if Adeline's beef is with Flo putting Helen over her.  However, she's still crazy.  Helen has an Olympic gold over the second greatest female wrestler of all time.  Adeline does not have an Olympic gold.

my annoyance with Flo in this case is that they didn't set themselves any criteria for this list, we're just supposed to accept their expertise....

[CA_Wrestler 328]

Who should really be ranked higher?

 

They both started competing at the senior world championships the same year- 2011.

Adeline

-1 Olympic silver

-1 Olympic DNP

-6 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-2 WC bronzes

 

Helen

-1 Olympic gold

-1 Olympic bronze

-3 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-1 WC silver

-1 WC bronze

-3 WC DNPs

I'd give the edge to Adeline at this point, but if Helen wins another WC(has to get through Kawai), then I would put her ahead. 

[CA_Wrestler 328]

49 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

Makes sense if Adeline's beef is with Flo putting Helen over her.  However, she's still crazy.  Helen has an Olympic gold over the second greatest female wrestler of all time.  Adeline does not have an Olympic gold.

While that's true, Helen still has 3 WC DNPs...

[ShakaAloha 426]

1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Who should really be ranked higher?

 

They both started competing at the senior world championships the same year- 2011.

Adeline

-1 Olympic silver

-1 Olympic DNP

-6 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-2 WC bronzes

 

Helen

-1 Olympic gold

-1 Olympic bronze

-3 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-1 WC silver

-1 WC bronze

-3 WC DNPs

I'd give the edge to Adeline at this point, but if Helen wins another WC(has to get through Kawai), then I would put her ahead. 

 

1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

While that's true, Helen still has 3 WC DNPs...

To be fair guys, Helen did place in two out of those three WC's.  She took 5th in 2011, where one of those losses was to Yoshida, and she took 7th in 2013.  Adeline's DNP was a straight-up DNP.

The other thing you fail to consider is level of competition.  Helen has always had Yoshida, Kawai, or another strong Japanese woman at her weight, whereas Adeline competes at heavyweight where the women are less skilled at there are few strong Japanese competitors.

Edited January 11 by ShakaAloha

[1032004 1,454]

1 hour ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Who should really be ranked higher?

 

They both started competing at the senior world championships the same year- 2011.

Adeline

-1 Olympic silver

-1 Olympic DNP

-6 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-2 WC bronzes

 

Helen

-1 Olympic gold

-1 Olympic bronze

-3 WC golds(1 WC at a non-Olympic weight)

-1 WC silver

-1 WC bronze

-3 WC DNPs

I'd give the edge to Adeline at this point, but if Helen wins another WC(has to get through Kawai), then I would put her ahead. 

Wouldn’t many say an Olympic Gold is probably the equivalent of 3 World Golds or so?

[Mphillips 1,732]

15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Wouldn’t many say an Olympic Gold is probably the equivalent of 3 World Golds or so?

Does that work in reverse?

[Lurker 2,039]

2 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

my annoyance with Flo in this case is that they didn't set themselves any criteria for this list, we're just supposed to accept their expertise....

I don’t think we’re just supposed to accept it. I think the only ‘supposed to’ they’re going on (from their end) is we’re supposed to talk about, argue about, give our opinions of who should or shouldn’t be over who, etc. 

And we are….score. 
 

PS- (not to you Hammer, just general comment)….Helen has five world (3 gold) two Olympic (1 gold) for 7 and four total, with her Olympic gold coming reminiscent of Rulon over Karelin, with the added bonus that she actually outscored her opponent rather than kept her hands locked a fraction of a second longer. I mentioned earlier impact obviously has a play in this list, and becoming US first Olympic Champ in that manner is pretty big. 

Edited January 11 by Lurker

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I don’t think we’re just supposed to accept it. I think the only ‘supposed to’ they’re going on (from their end) is we’re supposed to talk about, argue about, give our opinions of who should or shouldn’t be over who, etc. 

And we are….score. 
 

It definitely gets them clicks, just like serving as a propoganda outlet for suriano does...it also has the effect of undermining their credibility at every turn but if Flo wants to trade on that then i can't stop em...I can be disgusted by it but I can't stop it. 

 

[CA_Wrestler 328]

29 minutes ago, ShakaAloha said:

 

To be fair guys, Helen did place in two out of those three WC's.  She took 5th in 2011, where one of those losses was to Yoshida, and she took 7th in 2013.  Adeline's DNP was a straight-up DNP.

The other thing you fail to consider is level of competition.  Helen has always had Yoshida, Kawai, or another strong Japanese woman at her weight, whereas Adeline competes at heavyweight where the women are less skilled at there are few strong Japanese competitors.

When I typed "DNP'd", that meant "did not podium" aka  no medal.

But, I get what you're saying and YES I did consider level of competition.  Nobody is doubting that Helen competes at a weight where the skill and technique are much higher and has had better competitors.   That's a fact which can't be denied.  Adeline has been slightly more consistent, which is why I gave her a razor thin edge. 

Helen was pinned twice by Yoshida.  Once in the finals(2012) and the other time was the year before in the round of 16(2011).  That's what prompted Valentin to tell Helen that he would train her when Valentin was with a rival wrestling club(TMWC).

Helen also lost to 2012 Jr WC Chiho Hamada at the 2014 Senior WC in the semis.

Everybody always complains about this person had a bad draw, that's why they didn't win. 

If you're great like any of the great wrestlers we've seen past or present, you're the bad draw no matter what.

 

Flo's rankings developed some chatter!

[jross 521]

Objectively on hardware, yes, Adeline is one of the all time greats. Subjectively, men and women's wrestling are not the same sport.  Same is true for other physical sports...

• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters
• https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

 

[CA_Wrestler 328]

5 minutes ago, jross said:

Objectively on hardware, yes, Adeline is one of the all time greats. Subjectively, men and women's wrestling are not the same sport.  Same is true for other physical sports...

• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)#1998:_Karsten_Braasch_vs._the_Williams_sisters
• https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

 

There should definitely be a mens and womens list, but you know....

[1032004 1,454]

1 hour ago, Mphillips said:

Does that work in reverse?

Lol sure.

So based on the list above, that would basically put them exactly the same except a Olympic Silver for Gray vs Bronze for Maroulis, and a World Silver for Maroulis vs Bronze for Gray.

I guess that would technically put Gray above Maroulis, but as Lurker pointed out I think Maroulis needs bonus points for being the first.

But interesting IMO that there’s 5 guys between them.  I’d say one argument for not putting men and women on the same list is it’s not really fair to the women because they don’t have college accomplishments.  But since that is obviously included I think I would put Snyder, Cael, and maybe Gable above Maroulis.

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

18 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I’d say one argument for not putting men and women on the same list is it’s not really fair to the women because they don’t have college accomplishments.  

DIdn't you hear? college doesn't matter. 7x champ, 6x OW and two time olympian Gray Simons doesn't make the cut.

Edited January 11 by hammerlockthree

[Lurker 2,039]

7 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

It definitely gets them clicks, just like serving as a propoganda outlet for suriano does...it also has the effect of undermining their credibility at every turn but if Flo wants to trade on that then i can't stop em...I can be disgusted by it but I can't stop it. 

 

If you’re disgusted by a meant for fun all-time list…..wow. Don’t know what to tell ya. 

[Lurker 2,039]

7 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

It definitely gets them clicks, just like serving as a propoganda outlet for suriano does...it also has the effect of undermining their credibility at every turn but if Flo wants to trade on that then i can't stop em...I can be disgusted by it but I can't stop it. 

 

If you’re disgusted by a meant for fun all-time list…..wow. Don’t know what to tell ya. 

[CA_Wrestler 328]

7 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Lol sure.

So based on the list above, that would basically put them exactly the same except a Olympic Silver for Gray vs Bronze for Maroulis, and a World Silver for Maroulis vs Bronze for Gray.

I guess that would technically put Gray above Maroulis, but as Lurker pointed out I think Maroulis needs bonus points for being the first.

But interesting IMO that there’s 5 guys between them.  I’d say one argument for not putting men and women on the same list is it’s not really fair to the women because they don’t have college accomplishments.  But since that is obviously included I think I would put Snyder, Cael, and maybe Gable above Maroulis.

Yeah, but the women actually do have college accomplishments. 

The first, 4 time collegiate wrestling champions were...Victoria Anthony and then not too long after(same tournament)Helen Maroulis.  Both from the same university, Simon Fraser in Canada.

The problem in the US is that although women compete in freestyle while in college, the skill level throughout all of women's collegiate wrestling isn't consistent across the board compared to mens wrestling in say NCAA Div 1.  I think a big reason for that is everybody grows up doing folk, then have to switch right over to freestyle unless the womens athletes have been competing on the US national freestyle circuits from cadet/junior/senior levels. 

[gimpeltf 2,069]

39 minutes ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Yeah, but the women actually do have college accomplishments. 

The first, 4 time collegiate wrestling champions were...Victoria Anthony and then not too long after(same tournament)Helen Maroulis.  Both from the same university, Simon Fraser in Canada.

The problem in the US is that although women compete in freestyle while in college, the skill level throughout all of women's collegiate wrestling isn't consistent across the board compared to mens wrestling in say NCAA Div 1.  I think a big reason for that is everybody grows up doing folk, then have to switch right over to freestyle unless the womens athletes have been competing on the US national freestyle circuits from cadet/junior/senior levels. 

Yes, girls in states that have sanctioned the sport do go folkstyle. But guys do most of their youth wrestling in folk. Girls do as much if not more in free. I'm from NJ and the girls train in the clubs more free and go to a higher percentage of off-season events in free than the average boy does. Super32 girls is free. Boys folk.

I think the reason for what you see is more that there is still a smaller talent pool to view and one that hasn't trained as long in any wrestling yet. Most girls up until now might not even have started until HS. It's growing markedly as I'm seeing younger girls training in the clubs. Our Fargo numbers tripled from 2019-2021 and it looks like it's all up from here given the younger girls working out.

[1032004 1,454]

2 hours ago, CA_Wrestler said:

Yeah, but the women actually do have college accomplishments. 

The first, 4 time collegiate wrestling champions were...Victoria Anthony and then not too long after(same tournament)Helen Maroulis.  Both from the same university, Simon Fraser in Canada.

The problem in the US is that although women compete in freestyle while in college, the skill level throughout all of women's collegiate wrestling isn't consistent across the board compared to mens wrestling in say NCAA Div 1.  I think a big reason for that is everybody grows up doing folk, then have to switch right over to freestyle unless the womens athletes have been competing on the US national freestyle circuits from cadet/junior/senior levels. 

Fair enough.  They don't have "NCAA D1" accomplishments

[1032004 1,454]

10 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

DIdn't you hear? college doesn't matter. 7x champ, 6x OW and two time olympian Gray Simons doesn't make the cut.

Before my time and I haven't really looked at the list past the top 20, but it seems they are doing a combo of both college+international, with probably more weight on international, and it doesn't look like Simons had any international medals?

[JasonBryant 2,096]

22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Before my time and I haven't really looked at the list past the top 20, but it seems they are doing a combo of both college+international, with probably more weight on international, and it doesn't look like Simons had any international medals?

Didn't lose at the 1960 Olympics in the black mark era and didn't medal. Also competed at the 1964 Games. Didn't have the benefit of World Championship attendance like the later generations did. Let me provide some additional fodder. 

There are FOUR wrestlers in the history of college wrestling - three are American - who are multiple-time Olympians, multiple-time NCAA Championship OWs AND three-time NCAA champions - Yojiro Uetake, Dan Hodge, Bill Koll and Gray Simons. Uetake's not on the list, because he's Japanese and the list is Americans. Koll and Hodge are on the list. 

Gray should at the minimum be in there above any two-time NCAA champ who never made an Olympic team. And there's a couple of them on the list. This does not even include his NAIA stuff, which most people tend to pan. 

[1032004 1,454]

7 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

Didn't lose at the 1960 Olympics in the black mark era and didn't medal. Also competed at the 1964 Games. Didn't have the benefit of World Championship attendance like the later generations did. Let me provide some additional fodder. 

There are FOUR wrestlers in the history of college wrestling - three are American - who are multiple-time Olympians, multiple-time NCAA Championship OWs AND three-time NCAA champions - Yojiro Uetake, Dan Hodge, Bill Koll and Gray Simons. Uetake's not on the list, because he's Japanese and the list is Americans. Koll and Hodge are on the list. 

Gray should at the minimum be in there above any two-time NCAA champ who never made an Olympic team. And there's a couple of them on the list. This does not even include his NAIA stuff, which most people tend to pan. 

Don't even know what the "black mark era" is haha, appreciate the info.   So Worlds did not exist back then?

Yeah like I said I didn't look at the bottom of the list, if there are just random 2x NCAA champs on there, then he should definitely be above them.

[gimpeltf 2,069]

Just now, 1032004 said:

Don't even know what the "black mark era" is haha, appreciate the info.   So Worlds did not exist back then?

Yeah like I said I didn't look at the bottom of the list, if there are just random 2x NCAA champs on there, then he should definitely be above them.

Back then you were given points for the results. Off the top of my head- 0 for winning by fall, 1 for winning by dec, 2 for a tie, 3 for losing by dec, 4 for losing by fall.

When you totaled 6 you were eliminated regardless of scenarios where you didn't lose a bout. They changed it shortly after this to (I think) 6 but you had to lose. At some point they changed to a positive system having to lose twice (I forget how ties factored in then)

[cowcards15 32]

I really don't (well I do but it purely has to do with gender) understand this whole "This woman couldn't beat this dude so she can't be ranked higher" thing. If that's the case this should just be a list of 97 and 125kg. John Smith isn't beating Zach Rey in a match. Rey has to be higher then. I keep seeing women are too new in this sport and have the "knowledge" of the men. Can't throw anyone out there before say 2000/2010 then since the sport has evolved quite a bit. But also women's competition isn't as good because there isn't as many "good" wrestlers in their world brackets. So now you have to go through each bracket anyone has medaled (or not) and see who the competition was to make sure it was worthy of that medal (or to excuse not placing). But also lower weights have more good guys so automatically they need a bump up over the heavier. 

This is not a list of who is going to beat who. It's a list of who is the greatest (who has the most/better accomplishments). You can debate on Olympic vs World vs College vs injury vs retiring to coach vs whatever all you want. That's fair. Debate Gray vs Cael or Gable or Dake or Snyder. That's cool and valid. It's not valid to think Gray isn't in their class or potentially better because she is a woman. 

[dman115 522]

I personally think there should be a separate list for men and women.  Otherwise it is comparing apples to oranges.  And I don't mean that in a bad discouraging way, but rather men and women are just different.  Which is okay.  Being different is supposed to be a good thing, right?!?  So why do we not celebrate those differences versus trying to compare things that aren't the same?  Funny we as a society preach diversity, equality, inclusiveness, etc....all of which I have no problem with....then we turn around and try and make men and women the same by comparing them to each other instead of celebrating each for the great qualities each sex posses.  Men and women wrestling is different, they are both great in their own way...so why not celebrate that??  And speaking of equality and inclusiveness, that is accomplished by not mashing men and women together in a list, but rather, if we make a list for men, then we make a list for women, and vice versa.

And finally, while I think the list should be different for men and women, and 100% of the comments on here are probably coming from males...wonder what female wrestlers think of this whole topic, other then what Adeline has tweeted?