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klehner

Ridiculous 125 and others

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Take the presumptive top three (Lee, Glory, Arujau), and you have a combined record of 11-0 (3-0, 4-0, 4-0).  None of them are going to any of 
the winter tournaments, it appears, so into January at 11-0.  Throw in the likely additions of Suriano and Hildebrandt, and you have a top
five with a combined record of...11-0 going into the dual meet season.

184 is right behind with Amine, Brooks and Hidlay at 12-0, but at least two of them have six wins each.  Same for 285, with
Steveson, Parris, and Cassioppi at 12-1.

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15 minutes ago, klehner said:

Take the presumptive top three (Lee, Glory, Arujau), and you have a combined record of 11-0 (3-0, 4-0, 4-0).  None of them are going to any of 
the winter tournaments, it appears, so into January at 11-0.  Throw in the likely additions of Suriano and Hildebrandt, and you have a top
five with a combined record of...11-0 going into the dual meet season.

184 is right behind with Amine, Brooks and Hidlay at 12-0, but at least two of them have six wins each.  Same for 285, with
Steveson, Parris, and Cassioppi at 12-1.

Isn't Arujau entered for the Scuffle?

Also, Cassman isn't #3.

Edited by nhs67

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7 minutes ago, klehner said:

No, and using wrestlestats (since they show each wrestler's record).

I honestly believe you over Flo, in regards to Cornell activity.  That said I also see that Flo has removed him from the registrants list as of today.

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41 minutes ago, NJW said:

This is the new normal unfortunately until either the season changes (one semester) and/or the requirements change for the NCAAs

Not true:  there are plenty of highly-ranked wrestlers with lots of wins.

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There’s nothing wrong with this-the season shouldn’t span 4 months. It makes sense to start ramping up on mid January and peak in March. 
 

The guys who benefit from the early season tournaments are the freshmen who have to adjust to college wrestling matches (the additional minute and riding time factor). 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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I feel like this is why wrestling struggles to maintain programs and a bigger following, because its stars are always taking breaks and ducking each other throughout the regular season. It is like buying your kid a ticket to a Lakers game for his birthday, and LeBron is taking another random rest day. Die hard fans are still going to come watch these programs wrestle, but the guys who only know the stars, do not want to pay and travel to come watch back ups wrestle. They want to come watch Lee and other stars wrestle. If they don't, then kiss that revenue goodbye. You can sit here and be on the wrestlers side all you want, and I am sure it makes sense to you from the wrestlers standpoint, but they dont keep the lights on in the building - the fans do. 

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There may be a few exceptions, like Iowa and PSU and a few others, but most collegiate programs do not derive significant revenue from ticket sales.  With on-line streaming of events, fans have incredible access to watch far more wrestling (of all the collegiate and international "stars"} than 20 years ago.   I like more marquee matchups too, but hard to blame coaches for managing health/injury/seeding risks for their atheletes and teams with an eye toward NCAA achievements.  You never know when an athlete has the flu, a nagging injury, or other health issue.  Strength of schedule is built into the seeding process as I understand it, so there is some encouragement for wrestlers to compete against top competition.   

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9 minutes ago, snapspinscore said:

I feel like this is why wrestling struggles to maintain programs and a bigger following, because its stars are always taking breaks and ducking each other throughout the regular season. It is like buying your kid a ticket to a Lakers game for his birthday, and LeBron is taking another random rest day. Die hard fans are still going to come watch these programs wrestle, but the guys who only know the stars, do not want to pay and travel to come watch back ups wrestle. They want to come watch Lee and other stars wrestle. If they don't, then kiss that revenue goodbye. You can sit here and be on the wrestlers side all you want, and I am sure it makes sense to you from the wrestlers standpoint, but they dont keep the lights on in the building - the fans do. 

Fans in the seats don't keep the lights on for any program. Look at attendance numbers outside the powerhouses. I wrestled in front of more fans for a middle of the road high school program in Iowa. Also, these Holiday tournaments have never had a ton of fans. If you took the Iowa fans out of Midlands (when there was a real Midlands, the venue would not have been even half full).  Iowa fans knew Lee would be on a pitch count this year and they sold out season tickets (like 12,000+).

Resting starters and managing workloads is more prevalent than ever in the NBA and the NBA has never been more popular or generated more revenue. 

Your post doesn't hold weight. 

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20 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Fans in the seats don't keep the lights on for any program. Look at attendance numbers outside the powerhouses. I wrestled in front of more fans for a middle of the road high school program in Iowa. Also, these Holiday tournaments have never had a ton of fans. If you took the Iowa fans out of Midlands (when there was a real Midlands, the venue would not have been even half full).  Iowa fans knew Lee would be on a pitch count this year and they sold out season tickets (like 12,000+).

Resting starters and managing workloads is more prevalent than ever in the NBA and the NBA has never been more popular or generated more revenue. 

Your post doesn't hold weight. 

Ok well, then I will just make the blunt assertion that a vast majority of wrestling fans do not care to watch back ups wrestle against other teams stars, and a vast majority of fans are sick and tired of guys ducking each other to preserve seeds and all bull**** for later in the season. It makes the regular season lose it's luster, and nobody gives a damn about it anymore. It is a sad state in college wrestling right now.

**Que the "real wrestling fans still watch" DERP**

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24 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Fans in the seats don't keep the lights on for any program. Look at attendance numbers outside the powerhouses. I wrestled in front of more fans for a middle of the road high school program in Iowa. Also, these Holiday tournaments have never had a ton of fans. If you took the Iowa fans out of Midlands (when there was a real Midlands, the venue would not have been even half full).  Iowa fans knew Lee would be on a pitch count this year and they sold out season tickets (like 12,000+).

Resting starters and managing workloads is more prevalent than ever in the NBA and the NBA has never been more popular or generated more revenue. 

Your post doesn't hold weight. 

Also your NBA comment does not hold weight, as they have had the worst NBA playoff ratings in a long time over the past few seasons. 

The NBA’s TV Ratings Have Dropped 25% in Two Years. No Biggie. – Sportico.com

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5 minutes ago, snapspinscore said:

Ok well, then I will just make the blunt assertion that a vast majority of wrestling fans do not care to watch back ups wrestle against other teams stars, and a vast majority of fans are sick and tired of guys ducking each other to preserve seeds and all bull**** for later in the season. It makes the regular season lose it's luster, and nobody gives a damn about it anymore. It is a sad state in college wrestling right now.

**Que the "real wrestling fans still watch" DERP**

I think it is true that the occasional disapointment of an early season marque match avoided has been broadly felt, but I do not think that your assessment of the vast majority of fans not giving a damn about the regular season is inaccurate.   Wrestling fans are passionate and knowledgeable and care a lot about the sport throughout the season.

As to the state of college wrestling, it certainly has challenges, but it has been wizardry of many that it has continued to thrive during a nasty pandemic.  The sport at the collegiate level has been under threat for a long time, but seems to be in good shape.  Thanks to Mike Moyer and the NWCA for its leadership and support of collegiate wrestling in the long term battle for its survival!    

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1 minute ago, Elevator said:

I think it is true that the occasional disapointment of an early season marque match avoided has been broadly felt, but I do not think that your assessment of the vast majority of fans not giving a damn about the regular season is inaccurate.   Wrestling fans are passionate and knowledgeable and care a lot about the sport throughout the season.

As to the state of college wrestling, it certainly has challenges, but it has been wizardry of many that it has continued to thrive during a nasty pandemic.  The sport at the collegiate level has been under threat for a long time, but seems to be in good shape.  Thanks to Mike Moyer and the NWCA for its leadership and support of collegiate wrestling in the long term battle for its survival!    

While I am not going to argue your points are untrue, I would definitely say that I consider myself somewhat of an encyclopedia of wrestling stats and knowledge, and even I have found college wrestling to be dull and void of marquee in season matchups. Men's basketball has a ton of early season Top 10 matchups, NCAAF has a ton of early season Top 10 matchups, literally every other college sport seems to thrive on these early season matchups, but wrestling seems to be taking the, imo, terrible turn of ducking competition until conference tournaments approach. I do not see how anyone can think that is a good thing for our sport. Its boring and uneventful. 

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9 minutes ago, snapspinscore said:

Also your NBA comment does not hold weight, as they have had the worst NBA playoff ratings in a long time over the past few seasons. 

The NBA’s TV Ratings Have Dropped 25% in Two Years. No Biggie. – Sportico.com

Article is behind a subscription so I can't read it but I would be curious to see how it compares to other sports during what I will call the 'COVID' years. Is it just basketball experiencing this or other sports as well? I'll hold my judgement on the numbers until things are back to normal a little more (this is not an invite to turn this into another freaking Covid thread to get locked). 

 

15 minutes ago, snapspinscore said:

Ok well, then I will just make the blunt assertion that a vast majority of wrestling fans do not care to watch back ups wrestle against other teams stars, and a vast majority of fans are sick and tired of guys ducking each other to preserve seeds and all bull**** for later in the season. It makes the regular season lose it's luster, and nobody gives a damn about it anymore. It is a sad state in college wrestling right now.

**Que the "real wrestling fans still watch" DERP**

Missing these matches definitely sucks! But I think you are wrong. They don't prefer it but many if not most understand why things happen. Before Covid it seemed like attendance at duals was on the rise and these matchup dilemmas had been happening for a few years prior to this. It may seem like a big deal because like 30 of us get on here and yell about it in our echo chamber but the vast majority of wrestling fans don't even know that the message boards exist and most would not be able to walk you through a dual weight by weight until a bout sheet is released. 

I am an Iowa fan and its laughable how many people think HawkeyeReport actually represents the fan base. HawkeyeReport has like 30 posters who consistently weigh in and another 20 who post from time to time yet Iowa has 13,000 season ticket holders and many many many more who just watch it on TV. Do they want to see Spencer Lee wrestle every single dual? Absolutely! Are they going to stop supporting the program because the program announced well in advance that he would not be wrestling against Princeton? Maybe like 4 of them. 

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1 minute ago, snapspinscore said:

While I am not going to argue your points are untrue, I would definitely say that I consider myself somewhat of an encyclopedia of wrestling stats and knowledge, and even I have found college wrestling to be dull and void of marquee in season matchups. Men's basketball has a ton of early season Top 10 matchups, NCAAF has a ton of early season Top 10 matchups, literally every other college sport seems to thrive on these early season matchups, but wrestling seems to be taking the, imo, terrible turn of ducking competition until conference tournaments approach. I do not see how anyone can think that is a good thing for our sport. Its boring and uneventful. 

How many individual athletes on those teams did not participate in those top 10 match ups? because we get plenty of top 10 dual matchups all the time which would be the equivalent of these matchups. 

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28 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

How many individual athletes on those teams did not participate in those top 10 match ups? because we get plenty of top 10 dual matchups all the time which would be the equivalent of these matchups. 

Those sports do not rest their stars against other star-driven teams. They rest their guys against the weak parts of their schedule (if they rest them at all). Which is why its perplexing to me that these guys will wrestle against the weak parts of their schedule, but sit out against the tough matchups. I will say that I do give PSU props, as it seems that they have been pretty good about wrestling their top guys anywhere at anytime. For the most part....

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With off-season/freestyle events, today's top collegians get plenty of matches over the course of a year and most fans understand that their may be sound reasons why coaches hold out top wrestlers for particular events and matches. A wrestling match or tournament is not like a basketball game in terms of these risks. Iowa's Lee apparently is wrestling with no ACL's so this alone should give a pass to managing his competition load.  

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21 hours ago, Elevator said:

With off-season/freestyle events, today's top collegians get plenty of matches over the course of a year and most fans understand that their may be sound reasons why coaches hold out top wrestlers for particular events and matches. A wrestling match or tournament is not like a basketball game in terms of these risks. Iowa's Lee apparently is wrestling with no ACL's so this alone should give a pass to managing his competition load.  

No cap. It seems like college programs are finally (?) embracing senior-level scheduling. I wish more programs (and high schools) would start doing the same with one caveat: As someone noted above, right now the top guys tend to sit out matches vs the other top guys (lee vs glory) until they have to (the post season). It would be cool if we could get a series of all-star duals, like that exhibition match at the beginning of the year.  Set up events at 5 or 6 locations every other weekend in Dec and January. That would give wrestlers a few weeks to game plan for just one guy. It would be like an mma card.

Guys might show up to the conference tournaments with only 10 or so matches, but all the matches would have been against guys of similar credentials/abilities. The unheralded could wrestle more matches and build a resume by participating in a different sort of schedule (a conference jamboree!).

I guess this would make team duals meaningless,  but are they that meaningful now? 

It would also eliminate casual fans. Idk

Edited by jackwebster

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4 hours ago, Gantry said:

There a chance Furman can start over Fernandez?  The latter has looked pretty good so far...

I just figure he gets a chance to win the starting job back since he qualified for NCAAs - and beat a young RTC Fernandes - before COVID blew up Ivy wrestling for a year+. 

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