Scuffle

[ionel 2,731]

15 minutes ago, red blades said:

Here's an idea - have a separate dual meet team championship, with qualification based upon regular season results!

Oh, wait...

Carl does not approve of this plan.  :(

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

Why does the regular season count in college football? Because a loss or two takes you out of contention for the national title. Why does it matter in college basketball? Because making the tournament and seeding depends on the regular season (team results).

 

Until regular season team results matter in NCAA wrestling, the regular season won’t matter. Cael has now proven that he is far and away the best coach in the NCAA-maybe  he’d be more receptive now to switching up the format to favor duals. Probably not though since the teams he builds are always better tournament teams due to having so much top end talent. 

[jp157 550]

Honestly. A lot of this whinging is amusing to me. Because everyone will complain until its “their” kid or athlete.

Just like with grades and not failing kids. Just like with abortions. Everyone will bellyache and 90% of the people complaining, bemoaning, and preaching.. will have plenty of reasons why it’s okay in “their” instance or situation. 
 

 

[NJDan 1,113]

You could make seeding in the NCAAs dependent on the number of wins as opposed to win percentage or past results.

[gimpeltf 2,085]

3 minutes ago, NJDan said:

You could make seeding in the NCAAs dependent on the number of wins as opposed to win percentage or past results.

Just have Dresser set up some more of his specialty tournaments.

[denger 363]

41 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Honestly. A lot of this whinging is amusing to me. Because everyone will complain until its “their” kid or athlete.

Just like with grades and not failing kids. Just like with abortions. Everyone will bellyache and 90% of the people complaining, bemoaning, and preaching.. will have plenty of reasons why it’s okay in “their” instance or situation. 
 

 

What we really need is legislative solution that allows fans to sue a coach and medical professionals if they take actions in consideration of an athlete’s health instead of catering to the entertainment value of the sport. Certainly, the assumptions and sentiments of onlookers is greater than the health of an individual, especially if we’re going to sustain our fandom.

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

3 minutes ago, denger said:

What we really need is legislative solution that allows fans to sue a coach and medical professionals if they take actions in consideration of an athlete’s health instead of catering to the entertainment value of the sport. Certainly, the assumptions and sentiments of onlookers is greater than the health of an individual, especially if we’re going to sustain our fandom.

I completely agree that health of the athletes should come first. But when the starting QB of a team misses the entire season, that team tends to not be in contention for a national championship. It should be the same in wrestling where more than just March matters for determining the team title. 

[denger 363]

1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

I completely agree that health of the athletes should come first. But when the starting QB of a team misses the entire season, that team tends to not be in contention for a national championship. It should be the same in wrestling where more than just March matters for determining the team title. 

I’ve just accepted that the tourney is one really important event, and that doesn’t hurt me as a fan. I’m entertained the whole time - even when I don’t get to see a few anticipated matches for reasons that I can’t know.

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

2 minutes ago, denger said:

I’ve just accepted that the tourney is one really important event, and that doesn’t hurt me as a fan. I’m entertained the whole time - even when I don’t get to see a few anticipated matches for reasons that I can’t know.

There would still be a tourney for determining the individual titles. The dual format just determines team title. We’d have two great events instead of just one and teams would have to compete during the dual regular season to qualify. I’m resigned also to this not happening, but I think it’s a true shame. 

Edited January 1 by Billyhoyle

[jp157 550]

21 minutes ago, denger said:

What we really need is legislative solution that allows fans to sue a coach and medical professionals if they take actions in consideration of an athlete’s health instead of catering to the entertainment value of the sport. Certainly, the assumptions and sentiments of onlookers is greater than the health of an individual, especially if we’re going to sustain our fandom.

The entitled attitude on here seems to promote that idea

[denger 363]

6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

There would still be a tourney for determining the individual titles. The dual format just determines team title. We’d have two great events instead of just one and teams would have to compete during the dual regular season to qualify. I’m resigned also to this not happening, but I think it’s a true shame. 

Of course! I’m all for that.

Following this thread, however, the talk has been about “incentives” (both sticks and carrots) to make sure wrestlers compete more. I’m certain that I don’t know the difference between a duck and a health consideration, so that speculation is worth remarking on for being ridiculous.. 
I doubt we’ll get both a tournament team champ and a dual team champ, but I’d be happier as a fan to watch both.

[Mizzoufan01 45]

Just saw the brackets released. Interesting seeing B Mauller at 157. Don’t see Mizzou pulling his shirt, but it’s got me thinking. 

[flanders 25]

26 minutes ago, Mizzoufan01 said:

Just saw the brackets released. Interesting seeing B Mauller at 157. Don’t see Mizzou pulling his shirt, but it’s got me thinking. 

Maybe with Jacques struggling, they're considering pulling it.

[uncle bernard 1,124]

46 minutes ago, Mizzoufan01 said:

Just saw the brackets released. Interesting seeing B Mauller at 157. Don’t see Mizzou pulling his shirt, but it’s got me thinking. 

wasn’t the plan always for him to move to 157? he wrestled a bunch of 70kg. 

[ugarte 526]

5 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Until regular season team results matter in NCAA wrestling, the regular season won’t matter. Cael has now proven that he is far and away the best coach in the NCAA-maybe  he’d be more receptive now to switching up the format to favor duals. Probably not though since the teams he builds are always better tournament teams due to having so much top end talent. 

I wish people didn't take this attitude. Of course the other competitions *matter* they just don't objectively matter towards the ultimate goal of a team championship. I care if my team wins individual duals, I care if my wrestlers win individual matches, I care if my team wins a conference championship etc. And the coaches, schools and wrestlers obviously care too. At the same time, there is still the short term / long term objectives that are sometimes in tension that I've mentioned before.

Individual wrestlers have two ways to qualify: body of work over the course of the year or through the conference tournament. I don't think there is anything in need of a solution here and even if there is, I think looking for it in the middle of a pandemic where the factors in play are so much more complex than just comparing duals to NCAAs is a fool's errand.

[Husker_Du 877]

8 hours ago, ionel said:

Carl does not approve of this plan.  :(

no one agrees with that plan. 

the whole 'cael killed national duals' is such a bastardized version of the story. 

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

3 hours ago, ugarte said:

I wish people didn't take this attitude. Of course the other competitions *matter* they just don't objectively matter towards the ultimate goal of a team championship. I care if my team wins individual duals, I care if my wrestlers win individual matches, I care if my team wins a conference championship etc. And the coaches, schools and wrestlers obviously care too. At the same time, there is still the short term / long term objectives that are sometimes in tension that I've mentioned before.

Individual wrestlers have two ways to qualify: body of work over the course of the year or through the conference tournament. I don't think there is anything in need of a solution here and even if there is, I think looking for it in the middle of a pandemic where the factors in play are so much more complex than just comparing duals to NCAAs is a fool's errand.

The pandemic just accelerated what has been happening for years-everything that happens other than the NCAA tournament is preseason in the current set up. You’re right that to some fans, preseason is interesting and matters. They care who makes the 53 man NFL roster and pay attention to training camp progress. Most won’t care about it though because the games are meaningless. 
 

 If people don’t like forfeits and events where the best guys sit out, the solution is a dual ncaa championship. If people prefer the current system, they shouldn’t complain about its natural progression, which is the best guys resting until March. 
 

IMO, the NCAA tournament is a great event, but the regular season is broken. We should learn from the more successful sports and create a reason to have a regular season. 

Edited January 1 by Billyhoyle

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

52 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

no one agrees with that plan. 

the whole 'cael killed national duals' is such a bastardized version of the story. 

It’s more of a meme/troll than anything serious, but he was a strong vocal critic of the plan while Tom Ryan and Rob Koll were supporters. IMO, fans would be better off if they went with the plan. 

Edited January 1 by Billyhoyle

[Husker_Du 877]

'the plan'

was a total disaster. nonsensical. 

fans might have been happy, but it was a joke of a system (quite literally a shell game designed for no other reason than (the hope) for more money)

it would have been terrible for coaches and athletes. 

[gimpeltf 2,085]

You have to peak for top level events. You have to peak (or at least mini-peak) for conferences and then in full two weeks later for NCAAs. They were asking teams to do it again for Nat duals 2-3 weeks earlier than conferences. It might have been doable somewhere in January. But how would you pick them with so little data at that point? Plus with these high level duals you risk injury more than at regular duals. Gelogoev (?) was out after the duals as a result.

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

'the plan'

was a total disaster. nonsensical. 

fans might have been happy, but it was a joke of a system (quite literally a shell game designed for no other reason than (the hope) for more money)

it would have been terrible for coaches and athletes. 

Many coaches disagreed with you. If I recall the opinions were split basically 50/50. I think it would be better than the current system of a meaningless regular season. 

[Husker_Du 877]

this subject has been beaten to death. if, by now, you don't know the plan, the camps of coaches and their agendas, and the horrible ramifications the plan would have had if it went through, i'm not gonna change your mind now. you either don't know the whole story or can't extrapolate what that format would have done and what it would have looked like.

thank god it died. 

as for the 'many coaches' who disagreed with me, i could care less. if we could trust them to make the best decisions we wouldn't have the half-ass system we have now. 

and why in the world - if national duals did exist - would the first semester look any different than it does now? you think psu wrestles facundo vs. sacred heart? you think iowa would have wrestled spencer vs isu? you think cohlton schultz wrestles kerkvliet with the match already locked?

the only possible change to the first semester it would have caused is teams scheduling less competitive duals early on.

Edited January 1 by Husker_Du

[lost 146]

 

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

this subject has been beaten to death. if, by now, you don't know the plan, the camps of coaches and their agendas, and the horrible ramifications the plan would have had if it went through, i'm not gonna change your mind now. you either don't know the whole story or can't extrapolate what that format would have done and what it would have looked like.

thank god it died. 

as for the 'many coaches' who disagreed with me, i could care less. if we could trust them to make the best decisions we wouldn't have the half-ass system we have now. 

and why in the world - if national duals did exist - would the first semester look any different than it does now? you think psu wrestles facundo vs. sacred heart? you think iowa would have wrestled spencer vs isu? you think cohlton schultz wrestles kerkvliet with the match already locked?

the only possible change to the first semester it would have caused is teams scheduling less competitive duals early on.

Can you elaborate?  I'm being sincere - I really don't remember all the details, just that it was a controversial attempt to have a dual championship and Cael and some of the other coaches torpedoed it.

[ugarte 526]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

this subject has been beaten to death. if, by now, you don't know the plan, the camps of coaches and their agendas, and the horrible ramifications the plan would have had if it went through, i'm not gonna change your mind now. you either don't know the whole story or can't extrapolate what that format would have done and what it would have looked like.

thank god it died. 

as for the 'many coaches' who disagreed with me, i could care less. if we could trust them to make the best decisions we wouldn't have the half-ass system we have now. 

and why in the world - if national duals did exist - would the first semester look any different than it does now? you think psu wrestles facundo vs. sacred heart? you think iowa would have wrestled spencer vs isu? you think cohlton schultz wrestles kerkvliet with the match already locked?

the only possible change to the first semester it would have caused is teams scheduling less competitive duals early on.

can you link to something that detailed the plan and explained the flaws?

[Gantry 1,872]

Josh Saunders drops his first match, he hasn't had the results I was expecting early on - though he's young.