Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
superold

Logan Stieber vs Kendrick Maple

Recommended Posts

It just kills me how some wrestling "fans" are able to belittle and rationalize away a big win for someone. :roll: The kids wins two NCAA titles in two tries, wins silver in the Jr. Worlds, just gets done beating the world ranked No. 1 easily, and that isn't good enough....wow!! :roll:

 

I agree 100%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Logan mentions in an interview online that the weight-cut really effected him at US nationals, and thus his three biggest things to get ready for the team trials is no1 a good weight cut, no2 I forget. No3 blah blah blah

 

 

In other words, not to make excuses, but the cut got to him, as well as major disappointment in losing to Reese, by a very very debatable ball drop result (as a Buckeye, I am a fan of both, but think that was a ridiculous result: Logan scored 3 on it), that carried over to his match against Graff, a far better opponent tha he realized. Plus that match meant nothing to Logan in the long run, and everything to Graff. I don't worry about it as Steibs fan.

 

As far as against Maple, who knows. I think Maple may take one, but if they meet more than once, the advantage could turn Logan's way as it did a few years ago against Oliver. Plus Logan has yet to lose in High School or College at the Last tourney.

 

I have a ton of respect for Maple and can see him winning as well. Why isn't Maple starting his Freestyle career yet? Anyone know. With one cycle, only, a given, The time is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It just kills me how some wrestling "fans" are able to belittle and rationalize away a big win for someone. :roll: The kids wins two NCAA titles in two tries, wins silver in the Jr. Worlds, just gets done beating the world ranked No. 1 easily, and that isn't good enough....wow!! :roll:

 

I don't think anyone is trying to knock Stieber. It's not out of bounds to mention Stieber's win against Sat was an unofficial match with an extra 4 pounds for weighins. Or that Sat, is "only" the #1 ranked wrestler in the world on paper (unless he has some unreported, recent wins over the top guys), and that most would put Sat at #3 behind Kudukhov and Asgarov. Imagine next year, if Stieber and Maple miss the first month or so of the season and Mitchell Port becomes #1, yes, if someone defeats Port it's technically a win over #1, although most wouldn't see it that way. Similar situation with Stieber's recent win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fishook,

 

Plus that match meant nothing to Logan in the long run, and everything to Graff. I don't worry about it as Steibs fan.

 

I know you said you don't want to make excuses, but gosh it seems like there are a few excuses there :D

How do you know how much that match meant to Logan in comparison to Graff? In the long run, that match doesn't mean much to Graff either, considering his goals that is. I don't see how a 3rd/4th place match at the U.S. Open meant everything to Graff. At that point, and probably now, Logan wasn't even the U.S. #1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Maple is a freak athlete. A tremendous wrestler. A champion. Has a shot to be a legit international competitor.

 

Logan is the future of United States Olympic Freestyle wrestling. Gold Medal.

 

there is a difference.

 

Agreed. One of those things is a fact, and one is an opinion.

 

 

Vak,

 

I agree, the fact that Logan is the future of United State Olympic Freestyle wrestling is just that, fact. Gold Medal is just an opinion :D

 

Everyone knows your Ramos's butt buddy (and butt hurt over his loss (x5)) but c'mon the kid is a Junior World Silver Medalist and just beat the #1 in the world. I guess Maples domination ( :o :o ) of Port is just as valid of an indicator.

 

w.s

 

What does Ramos have to do with this? And I never said Maple is better than Stieber. In fact, I said I'd favor him at either weight. But what you said about Stieber is all opinion, and what you said about Maple is essentially a fact, although I guess you could debate about some of the adjectives you used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This isn't really related to the argument and I'm not using this as evidence that Stieber would win (I'm not sure if he would, Maple is a stud) but I thought it was pretty cool anyway...

 

In the practice room Logan wrestles, and beats, everyone on the team through 165.... Not sure why he stops there but I assume he could beat Heflin as well in a refereed match (6x stalling calls to get the DQ). There was an interview a few months back where Logan said his last 7 minute match against his brother ended 19-4... there was also an interview with Tessari joking about how none of them want to wrestle Logan anymore because he's too good so it isn't any fun...

 

Most of you have probably heard about Logan doing pull-ups with only his index fingers... reportedly he can also do standing triple back flips, punch through brick walls, vertically scale glass surfaces, and control the earth's climate with his mind. Those are just rumors though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is my opinion. Maple said he'd like a rematch with Oliver. He said he'd be willing to see that match if he wasn't in it. I've stood next to Jordan Oliver and Kendric Maple on several occasions. Maple is a whole lot taller. I think Maple will fill out a little bit. I think Oliver and Maple will be the top two at 145.5. Now if they go down to six weights or up to eight they might not meetup. Being a "tweener" really kills you in international freestyle. Pat Smith couldn't make 152 and have the energy needed, his brother Lee Roy said 154 would have been a weight he could have made. So I think we'll have to see what happens in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bigapple,

I'm curious to know why you think Maple is a better athlete than Jordan Oliver, something I have seen you mention multiple times. While Oliver is no Jordan of the Burroughs variety, he is as athletic as anyone else in the country with the possible exception of Dake.

 

How are you defining athleticism? I have a hard time believing anyone, including Burroughs, is as quick and agile as Oliver. Oliver is basically one big, long and flexible fast-twitch muscle. Granted, some of his quickness may be what John Smith calls "technique speed" (perfecting moves to such a degree that the sheer efficiency of his motion translates into speed), but I am confident that Oliver lags nobody on quickness and agility. I've heard a couple of the guys who worked out with him last summer refer to him as the quickest guy on Team USA. Maple may edge him on strength or power, though I have not seen evidence of either.

 

You have mentioned once that you saw both of them wrestle some time ago. That was some time ago. Oliver has developed tremendously since then and is now wrestling at a more natural weight for him, without a brutally draining cut. I don't see the big athletic edge that you are assigning to Maple.

 

On the techinque front, I'd be surprised if you did not agree that today, Oliver is above Maple. Oliver may have been the best technician in college last year, including Dake, all the Penn State studs, and the Stiebers. There is literally not a position from which he can't score, and his positioning is reminiscent of his coach John Smith's.

 

As for your comment that Maple is "a whole lot taller", if by a whole lot you mean an inch or so, I agree. Otherwise, I've stood next to both too and am almost exactly Maple's height (eyeball to eyeball), and I don't see such a height difference. Maybe Maple has an Ed Ruth-like wingspan?

 

In other words, I have seen no evidence, at least not recently, that Maple can beat Oliver. What I have seen is evidence that JO, despite his already very high level, has ample room for improvement, especially in freestyle, so there is not likely to be a "ceiling" issue for either.

 

While I respect your opinion, I think you're being too much of a homer on the Maple vs. Oliver match-up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're talking about me, I'm not using selective results. I'm very much counting the entire U.S. Open where both Stieber and Ruth took 4th. Still, while in college, Stieber definitely has more quality wins than Ed Ruth against top level competition. Do you disagree? I guess the point is, if you think it's ridiculous to not even consider Ed Ruth for "best current college wrestler", that implies that a reasonable case can be made for him to be over Stieber and others. Maybe he has a case. Would you like to make it? If not, what's the point in calling out the ridiculousness of not considering Ruth without making a positive case for him?[/i]

___________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I'm not sure why you think your opinion is sufficient to stand on it's own while I have to prove Ed Ruth's case. The fundamental problem here is that you want to call Stieber the best current college wrestler by using international results which is nonsense. College wrestling is folkstyle; the Hodge and Most Dominant Award are given to the best college wrestlers and are both based on folkstyle only...now if you want to talk about what college wrestler is the best international prospect, fine, state it as such so there is no ambiguity and when you say things like "Stieber definitely has more quality wins" make your case by documenting all of Stiebers quality international wins and why his recent losses to Hump and Graff should be completely ignored in evaluating his standing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why you think your opinion is sufficient to stand on it's own while I have to prove Ed Ruth's case. The fundamental problem here is that you want to call Stieber the best current college wrestler by using international results which is nonsense. College wrestling is folkstyle; PERIOD; END OF DISCUSSION; NO DEBATE, the Hodge and Most Dominant Award are given to the best college wrestlers and are both based on folkstyle only...now if you want to talk about what college wrestler is the best international prospect, fine, state it as such so there is no ambiguity and when you say "Stieber definitely has more quality wins" make your case by documenting all of Stiebers quality international wins and why his recent losses to Hump and Graff should be completely ignored in evaluating his standing.

 

You've given no good reason why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers. You've not put forth a legitimate argument for why it's ridiculous to use international results while discussing the best college wrestler. Only in modern times has their been a call for a complete divorce between international and folkstyle success, and from what I've seen, it's been from a very vocal minority and not at all taken seriously by the elite D1 college coaches.

 

I know the Hodge primarily uses folkstyle results to choose a winner, but do the rules explicility forbid using freestyle or greco results? Maybe they do, but I haven't seen it

.

"Stieber definitely has more quality wins" make your case by documenting all of Stiebers quality international wins and why his recent losses to Hump and Graff should be completely ignored in evaluating his standing. ---Flying Tiger

 

Where did I even hint that Stieber's losses to Graff or Humphery should be ignored? Could you please show me where I did this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maple is probably 4 inches taller than Oliver.

Maple is almost as quick as Burroughs in my opinion

Oliver is nearly as quick.

Maple added a double leg that isn't nearly as good as Burroughs, but it is pretty good.

Oliver has a very nice head shrug the kind Stan Keely and Kenny Nelson had when they wrestled at OU. I did advise Mark Cody that he should get one of them to teach it to Maple.

 

If both wrestled in a best 2 out of 3 come 2016, i think it could go three matches. I just think Maple has enough edge in length (quite a bit) and quickness (just a little) that is why i pick him. Oliver will be ahead of him in freestyle right now. When Maple focuses on freestyle he'll close the gap.

I think either one will be good enough to medal at the world level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maple is entertaining, athletic, and a great wrestler. I just don't believe he would beat Jordan Oliver, nor do I believe Jordan Oliver intentionally dodged him. Oliver jumping to 149 was setting himself up better for his post collegiate career.... the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BigApple, on whether Oliver is less athletic than Maple, I'll just agree to disagree. I actually think Oliver is a little quicker than Burroughs, but Burroughs' trump card is his explosive power, which nobody active right now can match.

 

But on the topic of height, not to nitpick, I'm exactly 5'10" and stand eye to eye with Maple with my feet spread apart in a normal "waiting in line" stance, so I'm probably half an inch taller. No way he is 4 inches taller than Oliver, who is a little shy of 5'8". My cousin, who is exactly my height, has a picture with both Brent Metcalf, who is 5'7", and Jordan Oliver, who is taller than Metcalf. In other words, I really don't think the height or length difference gives Maple a significant edge over Oliver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But on the topic of height, not to nitpick, I'm exactly 5'10" and stand eye to eye with Maple with my feet spread apart in a normal "waiting in line" stance, so I'm probably half an inch taller. No way he is 4 inches taller than Oliver, who is a little shy of 5'8". My cousin, who is exactly my height, has a picture with both Brent Metcalf, who is 5'7", and Jordan Oliver, who is taller than Metcalf. In other words, I really don't think the height or length difference gives Maple a significant edge over Oliver.

 

I never took differential equations so I can't follow this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But on the topic of height, not to nitpick, I'm exactly 5'10" and stand eye to eye with Maple with my feet spread apart in a normal "waiting in line" stance, so I'm probably half an inch taller. No way he is 4 inches taller than Oliver, who is a little shy of 5'8". My cousin, who is exactly my height, has a picture with both Brent Metcalf, who is 5'7", and Jordan Oliver, who is taller than Metcalf. In other words, I really don't think the height or length difference gives Maple a significant edge over Oliver.

 

I never took differential equations so I can't follow this.

 

I was just thinking about my own 'math disability'. So, as a result, I am easily B'dazzled by multiple numbers. :?

 

Diagnosed as Dysgraphia -or- Dyscalcula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. When did Oliver and Maple wrestle before .. 2011?

 

2. Maple is NOT 4 inches taller than Oliver.

 

3. If Stieber and Maple are both at 141 next year I would take Stieber by the slimmest of margins. Maple might be the most overlooked wrestler in the NCAA though. He would give Stieber all kinds of trouble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw Maple wrestle a bunch at this most recent (the 50th) Midlands.

 

He won it. What really struck me was how quick, yet smooth that he really is.

And....IMO it is hard to really appreciate all of his skills, unless I was close up.

So, I sat next to the mat, and I can tell you that the guy is smooth like silk. So,

do not blink, 'cause you may just miss a brilliant TD.

 

Denny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure why you think your opinion is sufficient to stand on it's own while I have to prove Ed Ruth's case. The fundamental problem here is that you want to call Stieber the best current college wrestler by using international results which is nonsense. College wrestling is folkstyle; PERIOD; END OF DISCUSSION; NO DEBATE, the Hodge and Most Dominant Award are given to the best college wrestlers and are both based on folkstyle only...now if you want to talk about what college wrestler is the best international prospect, fine, state it as such so there is no ambiguity and when you say "Stieber definitely has more quality wins" make your case by documenting all of Stiebers quality international wins and why his recent losses to Hump and Graff should be completely ignored in evaluating his standing.

 

You've given no good reason why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers. You've not put forth a legitimate argument for why it's ridiculous to use international results while discussing the best college wrestler. Only in modern times has their been a call for a complete divorce between international and folkstyle success, and from what I've seen, it's been from a very vocal minority and not at all taken seriously by the elite D1 college coaches.

 

I know the Hodge primarily uses folkstyle results to choose a winner, but do the rules explicility forbid using freestyle or greco results? Maybe they do, but I haven't seen it

.

"Stieber definitely has more quality wins" make your case by documenting all of Stiebers quality international wins and why his recent losses to Hump and Graff should be completely ignored in evaluating his standing. ---Flying Tiger

 

Where did I even hint that Stieber's losses to Graff or Humphery should be ignored? Could you please show me where I did this?

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

 

"You've given no good reason why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." .....This should be obvious to those that follow wrestling. Research FILA Freestyle rules changes over the past 10 years. Also, go over to the International board and search it. Then maybe you will understand why there was a divorce.

 

"I know the Hodge primarily uses folkstyle" ....no, the Hodge uses folkstyle ONLY. Research Hodge Trophy Criteria.

 

"Where did I even hint that Stieber's losses to Graff or Humphery should be ignored? Could you please show me where I did this?"..... You refused to even mention it until I put it out there and that says a lot about your agenda. Simply put, there is no way you could reach such an arrogant opinion regarding Stieber and Ruth without ignoring these very recent results

 

It's obvious at this point that you are intentionally being obtuse. Add in the perception that your own personal opinion is fact while everyone else must prove theirs makes it impossible to discuss this any further. Maybe future events will lead me back to this thread, but I am done for now. Oh, and I do find it very telling that you still haven't listed all those quality wins by Stieber.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ill make a positive case for Ruth:

 

He is 103-2 in 3 NCAA Seasons - with both losses coming as a freshman.

He has 73% bonus point percentage in his career.

A 3 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion and 3 time AA (1 3rd place finish)

His loss to Amuch (in which he sustained a knee injury requiring surgery) was avenged the next year, with a MD in the NCAA Finals.

 

His most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (again), up a weight class while defeating the returning NCAA Champion twice and majoring a returning 2x finalist in the Finals.

 

Stieber is 65-5 in 2 NCAA Seasons.

Also has around 73% bonus point percentage in his career (although slightly less than Ruth when calculated more precisely.)

A 2 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion in two tries (*Somewhat controversial win as a freshman, but a win is a win)

 

Most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (first undefeated season). He defeated a first time finalist, whom he had wrestled 4 times before. This was clearly his biggest win of the season. His freshman season saw him beat Oliver in the finals with a controversial call - that is a quality win for sure.

 

When you compare their NCAA careers - it is extremely clear to an unbiased eye that Ruth is certain in the conversation for being the best wrestler in the NCAA this coming season. More than that - it is not hard to make the case that he is the best - so to say he is out of the conversation is just outright silly.

 

Last point in regards to this "why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." - that is easy, because it is a totally different style with completely different rules. I am not saying they don't translate, etc...but if you question is who is the best collegiate wrestler returning for this upcoming season - the basis for that assessment should be collegiate wrestling...it is a fairly straight forward concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in a fantasy wrestling league that has a lot of former greats participating. I had the second pick this year.

 

Logan told me to take him, I said I will if Ed Ruth isn't available. I took I took Logan because the first pick was Ed Ruth. You have to take a guy you are certain will win his weight class, then you have to look at who will score the most bonus points. The year before I chose David Taylor, this year I didn't because I favored Kyle Dake.

 

Kendric Maple and Ed Ruth are in my opinion the best athletes in college wrestling right now. Neither has that much experience in freestyle. Neither did Jordan Burroughs when he finished with college wrestling. Under the recent "old rules" freestyle was essentially a takedown contest. There wasn't any forced par terre, and if you got on top 15 seconds was about all the time you'd be given. So if you were really great on your feet you could make a quick transistion from folkstyle to freestyle.

 

Remember why Dave Schultz at the top of his game physically and with maybe the best technical skills in the world couldn't make the top spot in 1988? Kenny Monday was the superior athlete.

 

When you get a matchup of two great wrestlers i usually pick the better athlete to win. If they are both great athletes, pick the one with the most length. Dave was a very good athlete, Kenny Monday was one of the all time great athletes and had more length. That is my reasoning for picking Kendric Maple over Jordan Oliver in freestyle. Folksyle takes away some of the advantages of the great athlete because of the mat wrestling. That is why between Logan Stieber and Kendric Maple, i think it is a tossup. In freestyle I'd pick Maple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting BigApple, I think I'll use it next year in my own Fantasy league... maybe put my friends and old teammates to shame :).

 

I think there is something to that formula as well (which pains me as a short guy with alligator arms!), a length advantage used strategically can negate an opponents strength or skill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big Apple,

 

Quick question. I've seen you bring up that Maple is a 4.0 student a few times on these boards now. I am fairly confident that Brown won the Highes GPA Award for the NCAA tournament (can't think of the official name) with something like a 3.93. Do the Oklahoma coaches not submit their roster's GPAs for this award?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the OU banquet it was announced that Kendric Maple and Bubby Graham had 4.0 gpas this year, and that Travis Rutt who redshirted also had a 4.0 gpa. That maybe just first semester. I believe Maple is a first team all academic team for wrestling.

 

Mark Cody has taken a team with an average GPA of 2.1 to about a 3.2. The wrestling team is now tied for the highest GPA of all the men's sports at OU. Mark's emphasis on academics is exceptionally strong. At American in his last year that team was 2nd behind Harvard for cumulative GPA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+ 100

 

Saw Maple wrestle a bunch at this most recent (the 50th) Midlands.

 

He won it. What really struck me was how quick, yet smooth that he really is.

And....IMO it is hard to really appreciate all of his skills, unless I was close up.

So, I sat next to the mat, and I can tell you that the guy is smooth like silk. So,

do not blink, 'cause you may just miss a brilliant TD.

 

Denny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Hammerlock3
It just kills me how some wrestling "fans" are able to belittle and rationalize away a big win for someone. :roll: The kids wins two NCAA titles in two tries, wins silver in the Jr. Worlds, just gets done beating the world ranked No. 1 easily, and that isn't good enough....wow!! :roll:

 

Who are you referring to? It kills me when panty wastes get on here and are disgusted by everyone who doesn't fall over themselves throwing around meaningless unnecessary compliments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...