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Logan Stieber vs Kendrick Maple

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This should be obvious to those that follow wrestling. Research FILA Freestyle rules changes over the past 10 years. Also, go over to the International board and search it. Then maybe you will understand why there was a divorce. ---Flyin Tiger

 

It's not obvious to me, and I've been following wrestling for decades. What specifically on the international boards would help me understand the divorce? I don't see anything. Why is it that this divorce, from all that I've seen or heard, only happens on message boards and not amongst the elite division 1 coaches? Truthfully, I need to stop saying "elite division 1 coaches, because it implies that it's common to see contrary opinions among coaches or other important "wrestling figures" at lower levels, which it certainly is not. Every year Fargo is littered with coaches and scouts, and I'm guessing this will continue to be the case as long as the freestyle tournaments still exist.

 

"No, the Hodge uses folkstyle ONLY. Research Hodge Trophy Criteria."

----Flying Tiger

 

In a Hodge article I found this: "The award, founded by wrestling historian Mike Chapman of Culture House Books, has seven criteria. They are, in order of importance: season record, number of pins, dominance, quality of competition, previous credentials, sportsmanship/citizenship and heart."

 

Are you certain freestyle/greco aren't considered? I see no explicit statement. Surely folkstyle season performance is weighted more heavily, but I see no statement that says that it's the only thing considered. And I find it hard to believe that it's not at least an "unwritten" thing, kind of like being an ncaa champion. The criteria don't state that you have to win ncaas, and I highly doubt that any non ncaa champion could win the award. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Edit: In making my point, I forgot to add that I'd seriously doubt if a wrestler won an Olympic Gold before a collegiate season, that that wouldn't already give him an early lead in the Hodge standing over his competition. Do you really think all things being equal (or close), a wrestler with an Olympic Gold in the offseason wouldn't be favored?

 

You refused to even mention it until I put it out there and that says a lot about your agenda. Simply put, there is no way you could reach such an arrogant opinion regarding Stieber and Ruth without ignoring these very recent results

------Flying Tiger

 

I didn't refuse to mention anything, nor did your post first get me to acknowledge anything that I hadn't already. Flying Tiger, I mentioned David Taylor's results at the U.S. nationals (should have said U.S. Open, but I believe it's easy to tell what I meant because what other freestyle tournament has DT had success in lately?) in a previous post, so that shows I wasn't ignoring those results. Why would I use Taylor's results there and not Stieber or Ruth's?

 

Simply put, there is no way you could reach such an arrogant opinion regarding Stieber and Ruth without ignoring these very recent results ----Flying Tiger

 

I disagree. During college, Stieber has better freestyle wins than Ed Ruth. Stieber took runnerup last year at the World team trials, beating many quality opponents in the process. He also took second at the junior worlds. Do you want to list and compare every freestyle accomplishment between Ruth and Stieber and see who comes out on top? I don't really want to do it, but If you insist...

 

It's obvious at this point that you are intentionally being obtuse. Add in the perception that your own personal opinion is fact while everyone else must prove theirs makes it impossible to discuss this any further. ---- Flying Tiger

 

No, I'm not being obtuse in the slightest. Sorry you see it that way. I gave you plenty of oppurtunity to present your case that Ruth is better, but you haven't made it.

 

Oh, and I do find it very telling that you still haven't listed all those quality wins by Stieber.

-----Flying Tiger

 

Just saw this. I didn't but I could if you really want. The reason I didn't post was because I thought it was common knowledge that Stieber has a superior freestyle resume to Ed Ruth. So, is it fair to say that you disagree? If so, I'll do the search and see what I can come up with for Stieber.

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Last point in regards to this "why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." - that is easy, because it is a totally different style with completely different rules. I am not saying they don't translate, etc...but if you question is who is the best collegiate wrestler returning for this upcoming season - the basis for that assessment should be collegiate wrestling...it is a fairly straight forward concept. PA-FAN

 

We've discussed this before PA-FAN. I agree that folkstyle results should be the primary evidence considered, but in all of our exchanges, I still haven't seen a good reason why ONLY folkstyle results should matter. Yes the styles are different, but they aren't "totally" different, there's a tremendous correlation between folkstyle and freestyle results, and that's undeniable. Also, like I said before the complete divorce between folkstyle and freestyle is something that's really seen only in message board exchanges, not amongst the vast majority of those who run college wrestling programs. And I say vast majority to stay on the safe side (you usually can find an exception to anything) but I've never actually heard anyone call for a complete divorce in my decades following the sport. That concept is utterly foreign to most.

 

More than that - it is not hard to make the case that he is the best - so to say he is out of the conversation is just outright silly.

 

Any more silly than not being able to say, without qualification, that Kyle Dake was better than David Taylor after the ncaa finals? :D

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Are you certain freestyle/greco aren't considered? I see no explicit statement. Surely folkstyle season performance is weighted more heavily, but I see no statement that says that it's the only thing considered. And I find it hard to believe that it's not at least an "unwritten" thing, kind of like being an ncaa champion. The criteria don't state that you have to win ncaas, and I highly doubt that any non ncaa champion could win the award. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

Emmett Wilson who was an NAIA national champion won the award 5 or 6 years ago.

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Ill make a positive case for Ruth:

 

He is 103-2 in 3 NCAA Seasons - with both losses coming as a freshman.

He has 73% bonus point percentage in his career.

A 3 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion and 3 time AA (1 3rd place finish)

His loss to Amuch (in which he sustained a knee injury requiring surgery) was avenged the next year, with a MD in the NCAA Finals.

 

His most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (again), up a weight class while defeating the returning NCAA Champion twice and majoring a returning 2x finalist in the Finals.

 

Stieber is 65-5 in 2 NCAA Seasons.

Also has around 73% bonus point percentage in his career (although slightly less than Ruth when calculated more precisely.)

A 2 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion in two tries (*Somewhat controversial win as a freshman, but a win is a win)

 

Most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (first undefeated season). He defeated a first time finalist, whom he had wrestled 4 times before. This was clearly his biggest win of the season. His freshman season saw him beat Oliver in the finals with a controversial call - that is a quality win for sure.

 

When you compare their NCAA careers - it is extremely clear to an unbiased eye that Ruth is certain in the conversation for being the best wrestler in the NCAA this coming season. More than that - it is not hard to make the case that he is the best - so to say he is out of the conversation is just outright silly.

 

Last point in regards to this "why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." - that is easy, because it is a totally different style with completely different rules. I am not saying they don't translate, etc...but if you question is who is the best collegiate wrestler returning for this upcoming season - the basis for that assessment should be collegiate wrestling...it is a fairly straight forward concept.

 

 

 

Who beat him besides amustuchei?

 

Another thing about ruth is he looks very small at 184 imo so his move up a weight was likely caels idea to get brown in the lineup to help the team.

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How about these two meeting at the NWCA All Star Classic on November 2nd? Even if they eventually wind up at separate weight classes by years end.

 

Unfortunately, that doesnt mean much. It s early in the season for one thing. Metcalf beat Caldwell in it (and was drubbed in their other 2 meetings). Also I remember Jaggers looking bad and that was in between his 2 impressive title runs

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Scarlet,

 

In this case we likely wouldn't see them meet otherwise. My thoughts are this event, as an exhibition, might be a place for it to occur. Sorta like Dake and Taylor did last year. I don't think initially it was expected they would each be a separate weights in March. Just having these types of match ups promote the sport by creating early season excitement.

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The All Star Meet is in Fairfax Va on November 2nd. The kick off to the first competitive weekend of the season. I think its far enough away from the March NCAA's to make financial sense for most fans to come to the event. Rooms are a $100 or less and the meet ticket is no more then $35. Plenty of airports to get a value flight for those traveling some distance. Also, close to DC to take in the sights.

 

GWWBN is part of the WIBN and with a Olympic Matches, All Star Clinic and Social it makes for a great weekend of wrestling.

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.

 

This has been an entertaining thread...but I'm fairly sure Maple will be going to 149 next year.

 

He should if he wants to win a second title...

 

If he stays at 141 he will leave college with only one title. Sad reality.

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Ill make a positive case for Ruth:

 

He is 103-2 in 3 NCAA Seasons - with both losses coming as a freshman.

He has 73% bonus point percentage in his career.

A 3 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion and 3 time AA (1 3rd place finish)

His loss to Amuch (in which he sustained a knee injury requiring surgery) was avenged the next year, with a MD in the NCAA Finals.

 

His most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (again), up a weight class while defeating the returning NCAA Champion twice and majoring a returning 2x finalist in the Finals.

 

Stieber is 65-5 in 2 NCAA Seasons.

Also has around 73% bonus point percentage in his career (although slightly less than Ruth when calculated more precisely.)

A 2 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion in two tries (*Somewhat controversial win as a freshman, but a win is a win)

 

Most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (first undefeated season). He defeated a first time finalist, whom he had wrestled 4 times before. This was clearly his biggest win of the season. His freshman season saw him beat Oliver in the finals with a controversial call - that is a quality win for sure.

 

When you compare their NCAA careers - it is extremely clear to an unbiased eye that Ruth is certain in the conversation for being the best wrestler in the NCAA this coming season. More than that - it is not hard to make the case that he is the best - so to say he is out of the conversation is just outright silly.

 

Last point in regards to this "why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." - that is easy, because it is a totally different style with completely different rules. I am not saying they don't translate, etc...but if you question is who is the best collegiate wrestler returning for this upcoming season - the basis for that assessment should be collegiate wrestling...it is a fairly straight forward concept.

 

 

 

Who beat him besides amustuchei?

 

Another thing about ruth is he looks very small at 184 imo so his move up a weight was likely caels idea to get brown in the lineup to help the team.

It was Mike Letts of Maryland who beat him 9-4 at Nittany Lion Open finals.

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The All Star Meet is in Fairfax Va on November 2nd. The kick off to the first competitive weekend of the season. I think its far enough away from the March NCAA's to make financial sense for most fans to come to the event. Rooms are a $100 or less and the meet ticket is no more then $35. Plenty of airports to get a value flight for those traveling some distance. Also, close to DC to take in the sights.

 

GWWBN is part of the WIBN and with a Olympic Matches, All Star Clinic and Social it makes for a great weekend of wrestling.

 

is this at the Patriot Center?

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Ill make a positive case for Ruth:

 

He is 103-2 in 3 NCAA Seasons - with both losses coming as a freshman.

He has 73% bonus point percentage in his career.

A 3 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion and 3 time AA (1 3rd place finish)

His loss to Amuch (in which he sustained a knee injury requiring surgery) was avenged the next year, with a MD in the NCAA Finals.

 

His most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (again), up a weight class while defeating the returning NCAA Champion twice and majoring a returning 2x finalist in the Finals.

 

Stieber is 65-5 in 2 NCAA Seasons.

Also has around 73% bonus point percentage in his career (although slightly less than Ruth when calculated more precisely.)

A 2 time Big 10 Champion

A 2 time NCAA Champion in two tries (*Somewhat controversial win as a freshman, but a win is a win)

 

Most recent season saw him become an Undefeated NCAA Champion (first undefeated season). He defeated a first time finalist, whom he had wrestled 4 times before. This was clearly his biggest win of the season. His freshman season saw him beat Oliver in the finals with a controversial call - that is a quality win for sure.

 

When you compare their NCAA careers - it is extremely clear to an unbiased eye that Ruth is certain in the conversation for being the best wrestler in the NCAA this coming season. More than that - it is not hard to make the case that he is the best - so to say he is out of the conversation is just outright silly.

 

Last point in regards to this "why freestyle results should never be considered when assessing collegiate wrestlers." - that is easy, because it is a totally different style with completely different rules. I am not saying they don't translate, etc...but if you question is who is the best collegiate wrestler returning for this upcoming season - the basis for that assessment should be collegiate wrestling...it is a fairly straight forward concept.

 

 

 

Who beat him besides amustuchei?

 

Another thing about ruth is he looks very small at 184 imo so his move up a weight was likely caels idea to get brown in the lineup to help the team.

It was Mike Letts of Maryland who beat him 9-4 at Nittany Lion Open finals.

 

 

Thanks. Letts was good, I was wondering if I'd know the name

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just a note on the Sat match:

 

It was a great win for Stieber no doubt. That said, Sat is not the no.1 . He has never beaten Kudukhov and the Olympic champ is Asgarov (Sat also lost internally to Bogomolov).

 

Asgarov beat Stieber fairly easily in their match. Logan ain't beating Asgarov, not now and not in the future. That dude is a beast.

 

Also, keep in mind that there is a huge difference the way the Russians wrestle and prepare at these duals and the way they prepare for Worlds / Olympics. Not to mention that at the Worlds that are coming up, you will see completely different wrestlers across all weight classes, than what were at BTS.

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Asgarov beat Stieber fairly easily in their match. Logan ain't beating Asgarov, not now and not in the future. That dude is a beast.

 

Also, keep in mind that there is a huge difference the way the Russians wrestle and prepare at these duals

 

Im A HUGE Logan Stieber fan and i agree that he nor anyone else is beating Asgarov, that guy is unreal and is no doubt the #1 guy in the world at that weight.

 

I seriously doubt the Russians preparation for this dual is any different than any other venue, they prepare to win, ESPECIALLY when wrestling the USA in such a highly publicized event. The Russian wrestlers and their coaches would likely be offended by that comment.

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Logan absolutely has the ability to take down anyone in the world multiple times in a match. I wouldn't put money on it, but he would have an underdog chance. Granted he could also end up 4th on the US roster like at the open.

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I think Logan is, and will be our best guy against international competition. The problem he will have is getting past his US competition. I think it doesn't help that he trains/wrestles with some of his toughest domestic competition daily at the RTC at Ohio State. They have all day in the practice room to figure him out, and know exactly what he does.

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Maple will definitely be at 149 next year. Cody said he has gotten thicker. I can see the same pattern as Eric Larkin, who went 133, redshirted, the went 141 for two years, then went 149 and OW his senior year at ASU. Similar height for Larkin and Maple.

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