Spencer Lee Done?

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

30 minutes ago, cowcards15 said:

This article might give you some more insights and clarify some things for people.

https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sports/college/columnists/chad-leistikow/2022/01/02/spencer-lee-iowa-wrestlings-future-season-ending-knee-injury-acl-surgeries-ncaa-champion/9070063002/

Double surgery. Wow.

That is going to be some seriously difficult rehab. 

[klehner 756]

5 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Double surgery. Wow.

That is going to be some seriously difficult rehab. 

If, as he has said, his rehab with the first injury was so successful, why does he need surgery on it?  Maybe my definition of "successful" is different from his.

[TBar1977 4,610]

42 minutes ago, cowcards15 said:

This article might give you some more insights and clarify some things for people.

https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sports/college/columnists/chad-leistikow/2022/01/02/spencer-lee-iowa-wrestlings-future-season-ending-knee-injury-acl-surgeries-ncaa-champion/9070063002/

 

That article reminds me that task loading in sport seldom works out for the best. 

 

[TBar1977 4,610]

7 minutes ago, klehner said:

If, as he has said, his rehab with the first injury was so successful, why does he need surgery on it?  Maybe my definition of "successful" is different from his.

I wonder how much thought was given to the idea that rehab of the torn acl on the right side but with a healthy left side is not exactly the same as rehab on the left side with a rehabbed but not re constructed right side. 

I referred to task loading in another post, and this is what I meant by that phrase. This 2021 rehab just could not possibly be the same as the prior one. 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

11 minutes ago, klehner said:

If, as he has said, his rehab with the first injury was so successful, why does he need surgery on it?  Maybe my definition of "successful" is different from his.

That is addressed in the article:

 

"But eventually, the strain on the “good” knee (the right) was causing layers of problems. Now, instead of one knee hurting, there were two."

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I wonder how much thought was given to the idea that rehab of the torn acl on the right side but with a healthy left side is not exactly the same as rehab on the left side with a rehabbed but not re constructed right side. 

I referred to task loading in another post, and this is what I meant by that phrase. This 2021 rehab just could not possibly be the same as the prior one. 

Given the quote from the article above that certainly seems like a strong possibility.

[TBar1977 4,610]

2 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Given the quote from the article above that certainly seems like a strong possibility.

The quote is why I think us mere mortals thought after last year's NCAAs that Lee should have had surgery. I am pretty sure a lot of people thought that, whether they said it or not. 

Edited January 3 by TBar1977

[cowcards15 41]

31 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Double surgery. Wow.

That is going to be some seriously difficult rehab. 

I think the biggest thing is that it's going to slow it down because he can't depend on the other leg like he could with just one. So things like squats are going to have to wait longer with slower progression. A lot of the stuff can still be done, but will have to be done 2x for both legs.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

This is why I think us mere mortals thought after last year's NCAAs that Lee should have had surgery. I am pretty sure a lot of people thought that, whether they said it or not. 

I am pretty sure a lot of people said it too (though I could just be remembering a few people constantly repeating it), but anyone saying "I told you so" at this point is really just revealing a confirmation bias.

None of us could possibly know what he is capable of or enough details about his medical situation to have formed an accurate opinion. But if presented with a binary option (get surgery / don't get surgery) anyone with an opinion had a 50% chance of guessing what wound up being the ultimate course of action. Notice I didn't say they were right.

Next we get to second guess the decision to get both knees repaired at the same time.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

1 minute ago, cowcards15 said:

I think the biggest thing is that it's going to slow it down because he can't depend on the other leg like he could with just one. So things like squats are going to have to wait longer with slower progression. A lot of the stuff can still be done, but will have to be done 2x for both legs.

So you are saying Spencer Lee and I have a lot in common? Cool. Can't wait to tell everyone.

[cowcards15 41]

8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The quote is why I think us mere mortals thought after last year's NCAAs that Lee should have had surgery. I am pretty sure a lot of people thought that, whether they said it or not. 

Except he had just tore the other one and thought that the rehab would work like it did the first time. He wasn't able to know that the knee wouldn't respond.

[klehner 756]

17 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

That is addressed in the article:

 

"But eventually, the strain on the “good” knee (the right) was causing layers of problems. Now, instead of one knee hurting, there were two."

So, they screwed up.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

Just now, klehner said:

So, they screwed up.

Not necessarily. No telling what would have happened had he had the surgery last year. Heck, no telling what will happen this year.

[Katie 1,076]

Is it possible that Lee is done for good, or will never be the same again?  I certainly hope not, because I hoped he would become a force in freestyle. 

Edited January 3 by Katie

[portajohn 464]

2 minutes ago, Katie said:

Is it possible that Lee is done, or will never be the same again?  I certainly hope not, because I hoped he would become a force in freestyle. 

My concern for Lee as well.  Lee is our presumptive favorite to lead the International Men's team into the future.  Have a few friends that tore an acl and none of them fully recovered.  But none of them are Spencer Lee.  So there's that

[VakAttack 4,042]

9 minutes ago, Katie said:

Is it possible that Lee is done, or will never be the same again?  I certainly hope not, because I hoped he would become a force in freestyle. 

Possible, sure.  He indicated his plan is to come back to Iowa for one more year.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

5 minutes ago, Katie said:

Is it possible that Lee is done, or will never be the same again?  I certainly hope not, because I hoped he would become a force in freestyle. 

Possible? Sure. But he said his intention is to put the Hawkeye singlet on again. "My goal was four national titles, not three." 

He was also quoted as saying "I don't know if I can do this for another five years." meaning wrestling with the pain, icing, electric stim, swelling, etc. I assume the five years includes his planned freestyle career.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Possible, sure.  He indicated his plan is to come back to Iowa for one more year.

I got scooped

[klehner 756]

35 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Possible, sure.  He indicated his plan is to come back to Iowa for one more year.

His plan this year was to win his fourth NCAA title and help Iowa win the NCAA title.  How'd that plan go?

[Mphillips 1,825]

3 minutes ago, klehner said:

His plan this year was to win his fourth NCAA title and help Iowa win the NCAA title.  How'd that plan go?

I would say it went in a direction all believed were a possibility. I'm not sure it snuck up on anyone...

[TBar1977 4,610]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I am pretty sure a lot of people said it too (though I could just be remembering a few people constantly repeating it), but anyone saying "I told you so" at this point is really just revealing a confirmation bias.

None of us could possibly know what he is capable of or enough details about his medical situation to have formed an accurate opinion. But if presented with a binary option (get surgery / don't get surgery) anyone with an opinion had a 50% chance of guessing what wound up being the ultimate course of action. Notice I didn't say they were right.

Next we get to second guess the decision to get both knees repaired at the same time.

Please don't think this is an "I told you so". It is not on my part. 

 

1 hour ago, cowcards15 said:

Except he had just tore the other one and thought that the rehab would work like it did the first time. He wasn't able to know that the knee wouldn't respond.

While it could conceivably end up working i.e. he gets the end result he wanted, it could not possibly have gone "like it did the first time" since it wasn't like the first time because that one involved one knee and this one involved two. He had to calculate in that this one would be different, even if he didn't calculate that difference to mean ultimately not working out.

It was a gamble either way. True dat. 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

31 minutes ago, klehner said:

His plan this year was to win his fourth NCAA title and help Iowa win the NCAA title.  How'd that plan go?

He also planned to win 3 before he wins 4. How did those plans go?

[Wrestleknownothing 1,664]

8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Please don't think this is an "I told you so". It is not on my part. 

 

It was a general finger wag, rather than one aimed at you. Apologies.

[cowcards15 41]

35 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

While it could conceivably end up working i.e. he gets the end result he wanted, it could not possibly have gone "like it did the first time" since it wasn't like the first time because that one involved one knee and this one involved two. He had to calculate in that this one would be different, even if he didn't calculate that difference to mean ultimately not working out.

It was a gamble either way. True dat. 

I would hope that his doctors and therapists presented him with that information and gave him realistic chances of it being the "same." Along with the downsides of it all. At the end of the day if he and his people had all the information for the realities of no acls vs 1 acl and they came to that decision then they did what they thought would be best. I have to imagine that he had all that information with the type of care he is capable of receiving. I don't see it ever as a decision that I would possible make because the downsides seem to be way greater than the upsides. But he had to know that was a pretty good possibility and he was willing to take that risk. Thus is life. Hope he didn't cause too much damage to his legs.

 

 

[TBar1977 4,610]

31 minutes ago, cowcards15 said:

I would hope that his doctors and therapists presented him with that information and gave him realistic chances of it being the "same." Along with the downsides of it all. At the end of the day if he and his people had all the information for the realities of no acls vs 1 acl and they came to that decision then they did what they thought would be best. I have to imagine that he had all that information with the type of care he is capable of receiving. I don't see it ever as a decision that I would possible make because the downsides seem to be way greater than the upsides. But he had to know that was a pretty good possibility and he was willing to take that risk. Thus is life. Hope he didn't cause too much damage to his legs.

Good summary, and one I agree with.