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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

 

 

Ayala is gonna be good, obviously, but any talk of him anywhere around 4th place seems overly optimistic. I am glad that doughnuts came up in this thread, because this is how many true freshmen not named Spencer Lee have made AA at Iowa under Brands Bros.

 

Basic Doughnut Recipe | Yummy.ph

This is a disingenuous question since few true freshmen have started at all under Brands.

Ayala can probably place 4th.  He also might not qualify.  125 is very deep after Vito/Suriano/Glory.

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5 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

This is a disingenuous question since few true freshmen have started at all under Brands.

Ayala can probably place 4th.  He also might not qualify.  125 is very deep after Vito/Suriano/Glory.

Few true freshman wrestle for any top team. The reason is that they are typically not good enough to AA, let alone place 4th. 

Which true freshman did Brands Bros. have that you are willing to claim could have placed 4th or better but only failed to do so because of being redshirted? 

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Few true freshman wrestle for any top team. The reason is that they are typically not good enough to AA, let alone place 4th. 

Which true freshman did Brands Bros. have that you are willing to claim could have placed 4th or better but only failed to do so because of being redshirted? 

Well I see you’ve changed the argument to 4th when your last post just said AA.

Kemerer probably could have AA’d, he majored one of that year’s AA’s then got 3rd the next year.

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10 hours ago, ionel said:

"guaranteed" is something special, "locks" are handed out like breakfast donuts 

 

58 minutes ago, Elevator said:

I like donuts (too much).  Seems like Ayala is a lock to compete at an AA level for Iowa.   I would expect that Iowa fans were very pleased with his performance.   Like Starocci, he may be improving every day in their room and could be at a higher level even by March.   

or maybe I was thinking of pastries but does it matter, donuts/pastries its coffee time & I'm hungry.  :)

Edited by ionel

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1 minute ago, treep2000 said:

Ayala is Iowas best answer for 125 at this point.  He will not place.  He could be a bloodhound type of guy, this year.  Can or will he AA in his career, I'd have to think yes, but not this year. 

Based on what exactly?  He is 10-2, with both losses coming to the 3rd place finisher from last year. His last loss was 6-5 in a match he was leading until the last 30 seconds or so. 
 

His trajectory is consistently going up. He may not be Spencer Lee, but let’s not forget he also lost as a true freshman to Bresser before his redshirt was pulled at almost exactly the same time in the season. 
 

This is 125 we are talking about. NO ONE is close to getting the performance at that weight, that Brands and Iowa have done. At other weights, I could definitely see some doubt. But, at 125, I wouldn’t doubt them for a second. 

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17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well I see you’ve changed the argument to 4th when your last post just said AA.

Kemerer probably could have AA’d, he majored one of that year’s AA’s then got 3rd the next year.

I threw in the phrase "let alone 4th" because that was the placement position my original post was in response to AND because you mentioned it in your prior response as well. 

My point is that Iowa doesn't have a track record other than Spencer Lee of getting any first year wrestler to AA, let alone to get as high as fourth place at NCAAs. The reason is likely exactly what you posted, they don't wrestle true freshmen often. Well, let's answer the next most obvious question, why don't they wrestle true freshmen very often? Because they aren't good enough to AA or place as high as 4th!

We'll never know about Kemerer because he did not take off the redshirt. And his win over Geo Martinez in the mid November Harold Nichols open came just 3 days after Geo lost to 50th ranked Gabe Moreno. Equating a win like that where one could easily envision Geo not being in the best early season form to an AA finish for Kem that year seems, again, overly optimistic. But again, we will never know because Brands wrestled Sorenson at 149 and Edwin Cooper at 157 that year. 

Anyway, I think the point I am making is pretty obvious, but go with the high hopes. I like the way Ayala wrestles. He's fun and doesn't quit. Great future ahead of him. 

Edited by TBar1977

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21 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I threw in the phrase "let alone 4th" because that was the placement position my original post was in response to AND because you mentioned it in your prior response as well. 

My point is that Iowa doesn't have a track record other than Spencer Lee of getting any first year wrestler to AA, let alone to get as high as fourth place at NCAAs. The reason is likely exactly what you posted, they don't wrestle true freshmen often. Well, let's answer the next most obvious question, why don't they wrestle true freshmen very often? Because they aren't good enough to AA or place as high as 4th!

We'll never know about Kemerer because he did not take off the redshirt. And his win over Geo Martinez in the mid November Harold Nichols open came just 3 days after Geo lost to 50th ranked Gabe Moreno. Equating a win like that where one could easily envision Geo not being in the best early season form to an AA finish for Kem that year seems, again, overly optimistic. But again, we will never know because Brands wrestled Sorenson at 149 and Edwin Cooper at 157 that year. 

Anyway, I think the point I am making is pretty obvious, but go with the high hopes. I like the way Ayala wrestles. He's fun and doesn't quit. Great future ahead of him. 

I mean there aren’t many 4x AA’s even with redshirts…

Regardless, IMO the only relevant fact here pointing to the possibility of him placing 4th is holding a late lead on last year’s 3rd place finisher.  So I stand by the fact that he could place 4th, but could also not qualify.  Kinda similar to Beau Bartlett last year.

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38 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Ayala is Iowas best answer for 125 at this point.  He will not place.  He could be a bloodhound type of guy, this year.  Can or will he AA in his career, I'd have to think yes, but not this year. 

Well I am going to revisit this in March lol.

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I mean there aren’t many 4x AA’s even with redshirts…

Regardless, IMO the only relevant fact here pointing to the possibility of him placing 4th is holding a late lead on last year’s 3rd place finisher.  So I stand by the fact that he could place 4th, but could also not qualify.  Kinda similar to Beau Bartlett last year.

A lot of guys have had a late lead on McKee. 

Let's see how he does against the rest of that schedule. If he runs it, then that is one thing. If he starts to drop matches, even close matches, then that is another. 

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2 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

You can see how a freshman who just needed a huge comeback and overtime to beat Noah surtin can beat ncaa champ Nick Suriano? You should let Tom and terry know bc I’m not sure they see how …There is a better chance of Nick Suriano walking off the mat in the  middle of the second period of the big ten finals and throwing his singlet in the stands and disappearing into the night then there is of Ayala beating him 

"How" in terms of the match strategy or how it could play out.  Suriano is not a huge offensive output guy, so basically Ayala's path to victory is a close match where he doesn't get ridden or give up more than one TD to Suriano, and then getting a TD himself either at the end of a period.  I just don't think true freshman Ayala has the horsepower to take Suriano down.  But as to the strategy, I can definitely see it.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I threw in the phrase "let alone 4th" because that was the placement position my original post was in response to AND because you mentioned it in your prior response as well. 

My point is that Iowa doesn't have a track record other than Spencer Lee of getting any first year wrestler to AA, let alone to get as high as fourth place at NCAAs. The reason is likely exactly what you posted, they don't wrestle true freshmen often. Well, let's answer the next most obvious question, why don't they wrestle true freshmen very often? Because they aren't good enough to AA or place as high as 4th!

We'll never know about Kemerer because he did not take off the redshirt. And his win over Geo Martinez in the mid November Harold Nichols open came just 3 days after Geo lost to 50th ranked Gabe Moreno. Equating a win like that where one could easily envision Geo not being in the best early season form to an AA finish for Kem that year seems, again, overly optimistic. But again, we will never know because Brands wrestled Sorenson at 149 and Edwin Cooper at 157 that year. 

Anyway, I think the point I am making is pretty obvious, but go with the high hopes. I like the way Ayala wrestles. He's fun and doesn't quit. Great future ahead of him. 

You asked for which wrestlers would have AA'd if they weren't redshirted, you were given one example, and then you immediately dismissed it as "we'll never know since they didn't pull the redshirt."  So why'd you ask the question?  #BadFaithPoster

Sometimes people are kept in redshirt because there's a better wrestler in front of them.  You know, like Spencer Lee.  Or because it's better for the team to have four years on teams more likely to challenge for trophies/team championships.  Derek St. John is another example of a guy who was a strong AA candidate as a true freshman.

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22 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You asked for which wrestlers would have AA'd if they weren't redshirted, you were given one example, and then you immediately dismissed it as "we'll never know since they didn't pull the redshirt."  So why'd you ask the question?  #BadFaithPoster

Sometimes people are kept in redshirt because there's a better wrestler in front of them.  You know, like Spencer Lee.  Or because it's better for the team to have four years on teams more likely to challenge for trophies/team championships.  Derek St. John is another example of a guy who was a strong AA candidate as a true freshman.

Him providing a name doesn't make that name an AA, and me using this device to point that fact out is not bad faith. It is just stating the obvious. 

What you say in paragraph 2 is correct, but it is equally correct and not "bad faith" what I said. That "bad faith" nonsense is a crutch to you and a few other Iowa fans. 

 

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42 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

"How" in terms of the match strategy or how it could play out.  Suriano is not a huge offensive output guy, so basically Ayala's path to victory is a close match where he doesn't get ridden or give up more than one TD to Suriano, and then getting a TD himself either at the end of a period.  I just don't think true freshman Ayala has the horsepower to take Suriano down.  But as to the strategy, I can definitely see it.

A true freshman getting more TDs on Suriano than he gives up is an epic longshot, but one who avoids bottom against guys who can't ride anywhere near as good as Suriano and then not getting ridden by Nick is an even longer one. 

I guess he could choose neutral from behind. 

Edited by TBar1977

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9 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Him providing a name doesn't make that name an AA, and me using this device to point that fact out is not bad faith. It is just stating the obvious. 

What you say in paragraph 2 is correct, but it is equally correct and not "bad faith" what I said. That "bad faith" nonsense is a crutch to you and a few other Iowa fans. 

 

Here was your question where I answered Kemerer:

Which true freshman did Brands Bros. have that you are willing to claim could have placed 4th or better but only failed to do so because of being redshirted?

You asked which true freshman COULD HAVE placed 4th or better. 

Although yes, prior to that you did ask how many true freshmen made AA under Brands.  I honestly don't know, who was the last true freshman other than Lee to even start? (I know there was Assad in 2020, but that's a N/A since there was no tournament).   Looking at wrestlestat the last one I see is Nathan Burak in 2012-2013 who made the R12.

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20 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

A true freshman getting more TDs on Suriano than he gives up is an epic longshot, but one who avoids bottom against guys who can't ride anywhere near as good as Suriano and then not getting ridden by Nick is an even longer one. 

I guess he could choose neutral from behind. 

He doesn't have to get more TDs then Suriano, because I agree, that is unlikely.  If Suriano gets a TD and Ayala escapes, then they trade escapes, and Ayala gets a TD at thee nd of a period (i.e. no escape given up), that's the path to victory.

22 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Him providing a name doesn't make that name an AA, and me using this device to point that fact out is not bad faith. It is just stating the obvious. 

What you say in paragraph 2 is correct, but it is equally correct and not "bad faith" what I said. That "bad faith" nonsense is a crutch to you and a few other Iowa fans. 

 

You asked a theoretical question, and then dismissed the answer as theoretical.

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3 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

He doesn't have to get more TDs then Suriano, because I agree, that is unlikely.  If Suriano gets a TD and Ayala escapes, then they trade escapes, and Ayala gets a TD at thee nd of a period (i.e. no escape given up), that's the path to victory.

You asked a theoretical question, and then dismissed the answer as theoretical.

Not saying he'll beat Suriano, but he probably does match up better vs Suriano than say a Glory or even a Schroder who might be able to turn him.   But Suriano doesn't usually turn the top guys.

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Here was your question where I answered Kemerer:. You asked which true freshman COULD HAVE placed 4th or better. 

Although yes, prior to that you did ask how many true freshmen made AA under Brands.  I honestly don't know, who was the last true freshman other than Lee to even start? (I know there was Assad in 2020, but that's a N/A since there was no tournament).   Looking at wrestlestat the last one I see is Nathan Burak in 2012-2013 who made the R12.

Maybe we should all just mail in the results every year. You are relying on a possibility which can be applied to any wrestler. The fact is that it never happened. 

The only guy to do it was Spencer Lee. No one else. 

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3 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Maybe we should all just mail in the results every year. You are relying on a possibility which can be applied to any wrestler. The fact is that it never happened. 

The only guy to do it was Spencer Lee. No one else. 

He was the only one that had the chance in the last 8 years...

So, they're batting a thousand!

Edited by 1032004

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

He was the only one that had the chance in the last 8 years...

So, they're batting a thousand!

They all had a chance, Brands just didn't want to take that chance. 

Brands could have used Kem at 157 instead of Edwin Cooper. He chose not to. 

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4 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

He doesn't have to get more TDs then Suriano, because I agree, that is unlikely.  If Suriano gets a TD and Ayala escapes, then they trade escapes, and Ayala gets a TD at thee nd of a period (i.e. no escape given up), that's the path to victory.

 

We even have an Iowa based example of this last year. In the Big 10 final Jaydin Eierman lost the take down battle 1-2 against Nick Lee, but won the match 6-5.

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Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

We even have an Iowa based example of this last year. In the Big 10 final Jaydin Eierman lost the take down battle 1-2 against Nick Lee, but won the match 6-5.

Yeah, but also Eierman's takedown was the greatest takedown in the history of planet Earth, so that should have been worth like 7 points.

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