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Gable Steveson

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9 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

My comments in no way are to diminish the accomplishments of Gable Stevenson. He is by far the most dominating wrestling in the game. 

But in order to be considered "The Best", shouldn't you be expected to match the "0" in the 159-0 record that Cael has?  If you suffer a loss, how can that be considered "the greatest" over someone who never did in a four-year span?

Just my view from the cheap seats.......

Yeah, Cael didn't win an Olympic gold in college.

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52 minutes ago, HawkY said:

I don't know how the Japanese domestic scene works. But I'm sure Watanabe could have been beaten at some point before turning 22.  The age he was at his first big international tournament. Wouldn't take anything away from him. He wrestled every big event in his 3 years , which was a normal length career back in the early 60s but very short by modern standards. 

I suppose it's possible he lost as a youth but he did win his first Natl title at 19. But it's also possible that he simply trained at the equivalent to a local dojo before actually formally competing.

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1 hour ago, HawkY said:

Do you have any proof that the best just wrestled Olympics for Japan?

Its not like these events were concurrent, so you could do both. Just glancing at t he past Olympic Japan champions from that era , most of them unlike Uetake do have a worlds or asian games on their record. 

Not questioning that careers were shorter than. Obviously they were. But Uetake's stint was especially short. Who knows he might have lost in that time if he went to other tournaments. 

Most people who won worlds or Olympics back to back once essentially replicated Uetake's senior career. A lot of people have done that. 

The first World's weren't until '51 and were sporadic during the 50's. Only 6 countries in '51. 7 in '54. 8 in '57/'59. 12 in '61/'62. '62 was the first for the US.

 

Year Dates City and host country Team champion
1951 26–29 April Finland Helsinki, Finland 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1954 22–25 May Japan Tokyo, Japan 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1957 1–2 June Turkey Istanbul, Turkey 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1959 1–5 October Iran Tehran, Iran 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1961 2–4 June Japan Yokohama, Japan 23px-State_flag_of_Iran_%281933%E2%80%93 Iran
1962 21–23 June United States Toledo, United States 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1963 31 May – 2 June Bulgaria Sofia, Bulgaria 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1965 1–3 June United Kingdom Manchester, United Kingdom 23px-State_flag_of_Iran_%281964%E2%80%93 Iran
1966 16–18 June United States Toledo, United States 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1967 12–14 November India New Delhi, India 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union

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The original topic revolved around "upper weight" competitors.  Which I would say is 190lbs and up.  At those weights it does make a difference to be a grown man versus an 18-19 year old.   Think we slightly got off topic talking about Uetake, Dan Gable and Nate Carr.

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If we're talking strictly college, Carlton Haselrig is as probably as close to Gable as anyone else. He wasn't raised from birth to be a wrestler like Gable, but still had what I'd consider to be the best heavyweight college career of all time.

He probably gives Gable a run in the athleticism department as well. He never played college football but became a pro bowl lineman. 

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39 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

The first World's weren't until '51 and were sporadic during the 50's. Only 6 countries in '51. 7 in '54. 8 in '57/'59. 12 in '61/'62. '62 was the first for the US.

 

Year Dates City and host country Team champion
1951 26–29 April Finland Helsinki, Finland 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1954 22–25 May Japan Tokyo, Japan 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1957 1–2 June Turkey Istanbul, Turkey 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1959 1–5 October Iran Tehran, Iran 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1961 2–4 June Japan Yokohama, Japan 23px-State_flag_of_Iran_%281933%E2%80%93 Iran
1962 21–23 June United States Toledo, United States 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1963 31 May – 2 June Bulgaria Sofia, Bulgaria 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union
1965 1–3 June United Kingdom Manchester, United Kingdom 23px-State_flag_of_Iran_%281964%E2%80%93 Iran
1966 16–18 June United States Toledo, United States 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey
1967 12–14 November India New Delhi, India 23px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png Soviet Union

Uetake and Watanabe are from the 60s, when worlds were regular events. 

Plus the top countries embraced worlds quickly. Japan, Soviets, and Iran are all there in that snap shot.  

 

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22 minutes ago, HawkY said:

Uetake and Watanabe are from the 60s, when worlds were regular events. 

Plus the top countries embraced worlds quickly. Japan, Soviets, and Iran are all there in that snap shot.  

 

Your not really following but, oh well.  ;_;

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47 minutes ago, ionel said:

Your not really following but, oh well.  ;_;

You are not. 

Japan regularly attended worlds from 1961 on. Uetake is not from the 50s era or before. He was born 43 and was only 18 by 61. If he was from the older gen I wouldn't have  mentioned worlds. You made up that the top Japanese wrestlers in Uetake's time only wrestled olympics. That is false. Look at Watanabe, Iwao, Masaki, etc. 

 

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6 hours ago, Holtfan said:

My comments in no way are to diminish the accomplishments of Gable Stevenson. He is by far the most dominating wrestling in the game. 

But in order to be considered "The Best", shouldn't you be expected to match the "0" in the 159-0 record that Cael has?  If you suffer a loss, how can that be considered "the greatest" over someone who never did in a four-year span?

Just my view from the cheap seats.......

Paul Jenn, Lee Fullhart, Yoel Romero, and Sazidov may have some counterpoints to your argument about Carl.

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Don't all American heavyweight comparisons have to start with Baumgartner. Obviously Big Bruce's success started at a more advanced age, but Bruce vs Gable, both in their prime, would have been interesting. 

I too am amazed at how easy Gable made it look against the current U23 World Champ. 

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1 hour ago, steen-hooph said:

Don't all American heavyweight comparisons have to start with Baumgartner. Obviously Big Bruce's success started at a more advanced age, but Bruce vs Gable, both in their prime, would have been interesting. 

I too am amazed at how easy Gable made it look against the current U23 World Champ. 

Bruce was a great wrestler.  But a lot  of people beat hm. He is in that Taymazov, Tomov tier of heavyweights that medaled a ton  and lost constantly. 

Somehow Bruce went 1000-0  over 15 years domestically (beating really good wrestlers like big cat) while dropping close matches internationally. 

 

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41 minutes ago, moose said:

Since Gable graduated High School, how many losses has he taken?    

I believe it is five.

Three times in freestyle: twice to Nick Gwiazdowski at Final X in 2019 and to Rakhimov the Medved Final in 2019

Two times in folkstyle: both times to Anthony Cassar (B1G final and NCAA semifinal) in 2019

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On 1/10/2022 at 10:12 PM, bnwtwg said:

Paul Jenn, Lee Fullhart, Yoel Romero, and Sazidov may have some counterpoints to your argument about Carl.

Damian Hahn also beat Cael in a freestyle match while Hahn was in high school and Sanderson was in college.

 

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Wrestlers can  jump levels so much between the ages 17-22. Just the body maturation and becoming a grown man makes you better. 

Taking a year out to mature v going as a true freshman is not the same. 

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42 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Is it fair to say Cael is the worst GOAT?

GOAT stands for Greatest of all Time (that's singular).  How many GOATs can there be?  Cael had the best 4 year college career but was not the greatest college wrestler of all time.  

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On 1/8/2022 at 11:44 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Probably? Likely? Almost certainly?

But Cassar will also almost certainly go to his grave being the only person in the world able to say "You know that guy who won the gold? Yeah, I beat him. Twice."

A lot of people beat gable when he was still a teenager for god sake.  coon crushed him one year, The following year that was very much a reversed.

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