Illegal Cutback at Southern Scuffle

[UsedToBe103 18]

I know there were at least a few illegal cutback calls at the Southern Scuffle, and there was one in particular where one of the teams challenged and I believe it went to a video review. During the review the Flo announcers were saying that the officials are calling it more strictly this year and that "if you can screenshot a moment where both feet are off the ground" then it is illegal. I wanted to show that clip to my team to demonstrate how it's being called this year but I can't seem to find which match it was. I thought it was a middleweight match on day 2, but I rewatched the ones that I thought it might have been and didn't see it. If anyone knows what match it was it would be much appreciated.

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

the implementation of this rules is completely out of control. 

[MSU158 2,012]

5 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

the implementation of this rules is completely out of control. 

Have to disagree.  It can be VERY dangerous.  The point isn't to call penalties on the ticky tack versions, but to ELIMINATE any attempts or variations all together.  To me, its a lot like the face mask penalty in football.  Obviously grazing the mask is a hell of a lot different than grabbing it and yanking the guy to the ground.  However, the rule and the way they call it makes guys try exceptionally hard not to even touch it, PERIOD...

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

Lifting someone off their feet is also very dangerous...lets outlaw it. 

[MSU158 2,012]

47 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Lifting someone off their feet is also very dangerous...lets outlaw it. 

Certain ways of taking someone off their feet IS actually illegal and, when done legally, there are VERY SPECIFIC rules on how you are supposed to return that person to the mat.  Are there not?  Even novice coaches at least have a general understanding of this from mat returns to double legs and even lateral drops.  The positioning of the offensive wrestler to the opponent's body, along with the specific hold, do a TON to minimize possible dangers and they are fundamental teachings, from the very beginning, by even most of the least knowledgeable coaches out there.

With that said, you used a TERRIBLE comparison.  Rear trips while leaving your feet are NOT an essential part of wrestling. You CAN eliminate leaving your feet to trip and potentially break bones without hurting wrestling in the least.  And, make no mistake, the problem with the cutback is how easy you can break legs and the fact you can create a dangerous amount of the leverage with a considerable lack of control once you leave your feet.  

Edited January 11 by MSU158

[hammerlockthree 2,635]

2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Certain ways of taking someone off their feet IS actually illegal and, when done legally, there are VERY SPECIFIC rules on how you are supposed to return that person to the mat.  Are there not?  Even novice coaches at least have a general understanding of this from mat returns to double legs and even lateral drops.  The positioning of the offensive wrestler to the opponent's body, along with the specific hold, do a TON to minimize possible dangers and they are fundamental teachings, from the very beginning, by even most of the least knowledgeable coaches out there.

With that said, you used a TERRIBLE comparison.  Rear trips while leaving your feet are NOT an essential part of wrestling. You CAN eliminate leaving your feet to trip and potentially break bones without hurting wrestling in the least.  And, make no mistake, the problem with the cutback is how easy you can break legs and the fact you can create a dangerous amount of the leverage with a considerable lack of control once you leave your feet.  

that would make sense if you hadn't already endorsed draconian interpretations of the rules via your face mask comparison...

[gimpeltf 2,074]

What's illegal about this?

[MSU158 2,012]

16 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

that would make sense if you hadn't already endorsed draconian interpretations of the rules via your face mask comparison...

I didn't mean that a facemask and the cut back were the equivalent in dangerous positions.  I simply meant the way the rule is enforced effectively does the same thing...

[fadzaev2 545]

I was there when I saw the "cutback" that probably caused the rule......Jack Griffin (NW) vs. defending national finalist Keith Nix (MN) 1989 Big Ten Finals.  I don't think Nix ever wrestled again, and he was only a sophomore.  Jack Griffin (a friend of mine) went on to win the NCAA title in 1990.

75th Big 10 Wrestling Tournament 1989 At Purdue Champions and Place Winners Top Ten Team Scores Outstanding Wrestler Tom Brands - Iowa Team Champion Iowa - 125.25 Points Number of Individual Champs in parentheses 118 Griffin, Jack - Northwestern (WDF) Nix, Keith - Minnesota 

[flyingcement 825]

I wonder if this was always illegal.  I used to do this as a transition into a hazard tilt.  I don't think I ever had cutback called against me, but it may be a newer rule.  

[flyingcement 825]

6 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

What's illegal about this?

Man I haven't been to this place in several decades (if they're still around).  I remember being fond of the "Bloomin' Onion"

[fadzaev2 545]

32 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

I wonder if this was always illegal.  I used to do this as a transition into a hazard tilt.  I don't think I ever had cutback called against me, but it may be a newer rule.  

At least at the college level, I think it became illegal after the Griffin/Nix match as I allluded to above.  Injury in 1989, rule change in 1990.

[gimpeltf 2,074]

57 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

I wonder if this was always illegal.  I used to do this as a transition into a hazard tilt.  I don't think I ever had cutback called against me, but it may be a newer rule.  

As I recall it's been in stages. The issue when it became illegal was the cutter's feet coming off the mat. What was made illegal more recently is called a kickback (no political jokes here) where you leave the mat kick the legs out and pull him  on top of you. A cutback is more to the side but similar in terms of danger to the leg. I believe the standing cutback using the arms is still legal.

[bnwtwg 1,065]

Can someone point to some videos of what is being called illegal this year? When I think of the term cutback, and this may be a regional lingo difference, I think of change of direction when finishing a single which is rather innocuous and not unsafe.

[gimpeltf 2,074]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Can someone point to some videos of what is being called illegal this year? When I think of the term cutback, and this may be a regional lingo difference, I think of change of direction when finishing a single which is rather innocuous and not unsafe.

[Crotalus 592]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Can someone point to some videos of what is being called illegal this year? When I think of the term cutback, and this may be a regional lingo difference, I think of change of direction when finishing a single which is rather innocuous and not unsafe.

The cut back itself is not illegal (we see it often), but top wrestler cannot leave both feet to execute the move. Even the example in this video could be called illegal.

Another version of illegal return where the top wrestler leaves both feet can be seen in this match (around 9:45):

 

Edited January 12 by Crotalus

[fadzaev2 545]

Here''s the cutback I was talking about  .....Griffin vs. Nix  1989

 

[IronChef 1,099]

The last video here demonstrates a legal cutback. The injury was unfortunate, but the move was not illegal then or now. The very bottom picture of the rulebook page shown by gimp is the most recent rule change. O'Toole was penalized for this in the finals at the Scuffle in the first period. https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7181371-2022-southern-scuffle/videos?playing=7319644&limit=60 

1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

 

[fadzaev2 545]

27 minutes ago, IronChef said:

The last video here demonstrates a legal cutback. The injury was unfortunate, but the move was not illegal then or now. The very bottom picture of the rulebook page shown by gimp is the most recent rule change. O'Toole was penalized for this in the finals at the Scuffle in the first period. https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7181371-2022-southern-scuffle/videos?playing=7319644&limit=60 

 

Checking into it further, I agree with you.....maybe it just seemed like guys got a lot more cautious about hitting it....but you are right, that is still legal.

[UsedToBe103 18]

1 hour ago, IronChef said:

The last video here demonstrates a legal cutback. The injury was unfortunate, but the move was not illegal then or now. The very bottom picture of the rulebook page shown by gimp is the most recent rule change. O'Toole was penalized for this in the finals at the Scuffle in the first period. https://www.flowrestling.org/events/7181371-2022-southern-scuffle/videos?playing=7319644&limit=60 

 

Thank you; that was the Scuffle match I was looking for.

And yes, I should have referred to it as a kickback rather than a cutback.  Sorry for the confusion everyone!  Although in my defense, Flo called it a cutback at least once as well, so it's one of those moves that a lot of people misname.

[MSU158 2,012]

1 hour ago, UsedToBe103 said:

Thank you; that was the Scuffle match I was looking for.

And yes, I should have referred to it as a kickback rather than a cutback.  Sorry for the confusion everyone!  Although in my defense, Flo called it a cutback at least once as well, so it's one of those moves that a lot of people misname.

Cut back is still an acceptable term.  Even in the wrestling rule book above the illegal portion references cutting back.

[gimpeltf 2,074]

4 hours ago, UsedToBe103 said:

Thank you; that was the Scuffle match I was looking for.

And yes, I should have referred to it as a kickback rather than a cutback.  Sorry for the confusion everyone!  Although in my defense, Flo called it a cutback at least once as well, so it's one of those moves that a lot of people misname.

 

2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Cut back is still an acceptable term.  Even in the wrestling rule book above the illegal portion references cutting back.

Cut back is still acceptable for a cut back (the top pictures). He's suggesting he called the kickback (bottom pic) a cut back.

[MSU158 2,012]

1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

 

Cut back is still acceptable for a cut back (the top pictures). He's suggesting he called the kickback (bottom pic) a cut back.

I get that, but it refers to "cutting back" illegally when you leave your feet, putting it behind the legs in the 2nd picture.  While it just calls the 1st a leg block.  To me, you are still cutting back across the knees with your leg in both situations and they both are illegal.  

Now, I will say that lingo is a funny thing, so I don't have an issue if you want to only call 1 a kickback and the other a cut back, but I always learned it was the leg across the back of the knees that made it a cut back, while leaving your feet.  With one foot firmly planted it was simply a back trip no matter where you positioned the second foot...

[Sstern 190]

A few years ago Isaac Jordan hit what looked to be an illegal cutback against cousin Bo, I believe in NCAA semis.

[jackwebster 302]

This rule would have eliminated my only reliable ride and turn (claw/spiral tilt)