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POLL: Most egregious form of "stall ride"?

Most egregious form of "stall ride"  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. What is the most egregious form of "stall ride"?

    • Tony Nelson spiral ride of death
    • Double boots a la Zain
    • Kyle Dake claw
    • Penn State ankle pinch
    • Other (specify in your post)


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13 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Here's one example I was able to find pretty quickly. Not every criticism against a PSU wrestler needs to be taken as a slight against your mother. RBY is a fantastic wrestler, as is Starocci, and anyone able to break in to PSU's starting lineup (except maybe at 125). But this is stalling, and was rightly called so in this example, but it often isn't. This is not an attempt to work to improve.
 

 

 

That won't work this year, Fix has been working all season on wrestling with one leg behind his back.  

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Show Me. Show me some of these matches. Show me where PSU wrestlers do what you claim without working to improve. 

How about you  show me matches where they ankle ride and I will gladly look at them.  Honestly, I don't feel like spending the time looking through matches...

But, I will give you an example I remember.  Although not ankle riding,  I do have a great one for you.  David Taylor.  One of the most active overall wrestlers we have seen in quite some time.  Definitely not one you would call a staller. However, he would absolutely stall for segments when riding.  He was an absolute master at sitting on the hips and hitting tilts at will if a wrestler sat back into him.  So some wrestlers got wise and wouldn't come back up and into him.  I specifically remember it happening against Conrad Polz.  What Taylor would then do is get an angry look on his face and wave his hands to the ref like the bottom guy is stalling.  Meanwhile, Taylor is just sitting 100% parallel on the bottom guys hips.

Why is this relevant?  Because, like the ankle ride, it IS stalling, they are obviously using it to force the bottom wrestler to react to it and put themselves in a bad position, but the move itself isn't improving position.  It is baiting the opponent to put themselves in a bad one.  There is a difference.

Now, I have said that it is brilliant strategy on PSU's part.  It is rarely called stalling and it puts the opponent in an uncomfortable position and most don't react well either, giving PSU guys openings or at least building up riding time.

 

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16 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa fans, you included, were always on Mark Hall for what you claim is stalling via sitting on the ankle. I will grant you Hall's entire career in a PSU singlet to show me a match where he sits on the ankle and does not work to improve. The stage is yours. Show me such a match. 

While I'm not an Iowa fan, I would point to any bout Hall wrestled Jordan Kutler.  Here are two bouts.  Common tactic in his matches v Kutler.  Here are two bouts that will provide the evidence you request.

He would sit on the ankle and pry back on Kutler's hand.  (See 6:30 of the dual meet video).  No real attempts to turn Kutler - only riding.

Also, see the Scuffle bout on Flo (easily can see this at 2:45 of the video:  https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6070759-174-f-mark-hall-penn-state-vs-jordan-kutler-lehigh 

 

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43 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Here's one example I was able to find pretty quickly. Not every criticism against a PSU wrestler needs to be taken as a slight against your mother. RBY is a fantastic wrestler, as is Starocci, and anyone able to break in to PSU's starting lineup (except maybe at 125). But this is stalling, and was rightly called so in this example, but it often isn't. This is not an attempt to work to improve.
 

 

 

Croatalus, I figured for sure someone would post this match. Let's examine this very match using not my point of view, but rather Gibbons and Tim Johnson's pov. 

Note that when someone is indeed egregiously or at least obviously stalling the announcers almost always start to point it out. They say things like "Wrestler A is risking getting a stalling call here". That doesn't happen in this match. In fact, the words of Gibbons and Johnson tell a completely different story.

Just immediately before the first stalling call - the only stalling call where RBY is in the top position

Gibbons says "Oohs and Ahhs there as RBY almost caught Fix on his back" AND "He did a great job there Tim using his left arm to come back and attack the ankle and far knee"

Johnson then says "Great Job"

Gibbons then says "Excellent job. I'm surprised he's able to ride this well"

Does that sound like stalling? Not at all. But that is precisely where the official hit RBY. 

Gibbons then says "Stall warning from the top position. Interesting call there. 

 

During and around the two stalling calls that occur about 20 seconds apart with both wrestlers on their feet in the final 45 seconds of period 3

With about 45 seconds remaining and not an ounce of commentary suggesting RBY is stalling, this is stall call #2 resulting in a 1 point penalty. RBY is literally shooting as the call is made.

With 27 seconds remaining Fix literally pushes RBY out of bounds and the ref hits RBY yet again, thus giving Fix yet another point. Before I get to the commentary, take not only1 of the 3 calls occurred with RBY in the top position.

Here is the commentary after the two stall calls in period 3. Johnson "Who'd the call the stall on"??? Then the follow up is "Fix pushed him directly out". Gibbons responds "Amazing set of calls there in the last 20 seconds. You just don't see that". 

Finally, after RBY wins the match in sudden death you hear this comment "In a match that looked like it was going to be taken away from him .........."

 

I don't have to defend RBY in this match. Jim Gibbons and Tim Johnson do it for me. 

 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Show Me. Show me some of these matches. Show me where PSU wrestlers do what you claim without working to improve. 

We literally already had this conversation after NCAA's.

 

The RBY/Fix finals match posted was the first example and pretty much everyone but you agreed it was stalling.  I also had a clip of Starocci which has apparently been taken down off youtube although not everyone agreed with me that it was stalling.

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27 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

While I'm not an Iowa fan, I would point to any bout Hall wrestled Jordan Kutler.  Here are two bouts.  Common tactic in his matches v Kutler.  Here are two bouts that will provide the evidence you request.

He would sit on the ankle and pry back on Kutler's hand.  (See 6:30 of the dual meet video).  No real attempts to turn Kutler - only riding.

 

In the match you linked and cited the 6:30 point here is my response.

The official does not call either wrestler for stalling, but implores both of them in period 3 to "work". When Kutler was on top he walked Hall OOB 2x and got about 30 seconds of RT for his effort. Then when Hall was on top Hall moved his ride around from side to parallel and attempted to doa variety of things to improve working his hands to change position and improve. The pry on Kutler's hand lasts 1 second. 

The ref, imo, does the right thing by calling 4 or 5 stalemates. Those stalemates advantaged Kutler and disadvantaged Hall, but Hall was simply better. We reward riding in this sport. Kutler was unable to ride, Hall was able to ride. Riding in and of itself is not stalling as the underlined of your commentary would suggest. 

Kutler lost that match 6-1 because he gave up a pair of TD's and a RT point. 

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14 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

We literally already had this conversation after NCAA's.

The RBY/Fix finals match posted was the first example and pretty much everyone but you agreed it was stalling.  I also had a clip of Starocci which has apparently been taken down off youtube although not everyone agreed with me that it was stalling.

Everyone meaning everyone in that thread.

The announcers in that match both felt otherwise as I have shown above. 

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24 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Does that sound like stalling? Not at all. But that is precisely where the official hit RBY. 

Gibbons then says "Stall warning from the top position. Interesting call there.

I watched the video with my own eyes and it looked like stalling to me. The referee, who was clearly paying better attention than those two, correctly called that situation.

24 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

During and around the two stalling calls that occur about 20 seconds apart with both wrestlers on their feet in the final 45 seconds of period 3

With about 45 seconds remaining and not an ounce of commentary suggesting RBY is stalling, this is stall call #2 resulting in a 1 point penalty. RBY is literally shooting as the call is made.

With 27 seconds remaining Fix literally pushes RBY out of bounds and the ref hits RBY yet again, thus giving Fix yet another point. Before I get to the commentary, take not only1 of the 3 calls occurred with RBY in the top position.

Here is the commentary after the two stall calls in period 3. Johnson "Who'd the call the stall on"??? Then the follow up is "Fix pushed him directly out". Gibbons responds "Amazing set of calls there in the last 20 seconds. You just don't see that". 

Finally, after RBY wins the match in sudden death you hear this comment "In a match that looked like it was going to be taken away from him .........."

This part of the match is not relevant to the discussion. But since you brought it up, I should point out to you that stalling is not like a gauge in a video game that has to build up to a certain point (though it feels that way, sometimes). It can be called instantaneously when a wrestler is actively avoiding wrestling. You could get 10 takedowns in the first two periods and still get called for stalling in the 3rd. Back to your points, the call at 45 seconds was called when Fix took a shot, not just after when RBY tried to counter. This is not a cut and dry stall call situation. Some refs would not have called that, some would (and did), but don't be dishonest about when the call was made to try and make your point. RBY was then called for stalling again for backing straight out of bounds. This call, in my opinion, was much more cut and dry. If you want to continue to rehash this match, go back to the thread 1032004 linked.

Edited by Crotalus

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11 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

I watched the video with my own eyes and it looked like stalling to me. The referee, who was clearly paying better attention than those two, correctly called that situation.

This part of the match is not relevant to the discussion. But since you brought it up, I should point out to you that stalling is not like a gauge in a video game that has to build up to a certain point (though it feels that way, sometimes). It can be called instantaneously when a wrestler is actively avoiding wrestling. You could get 10 takedowns in the first two periods and still get called for stalling in the 3rd. Back to your points, the call at 45 seconds was called when Fix took a shot, not just after when RBY tried to counter. This is not a cut and dry stall call situation. Some refs would not have called that, some would (and did), but don't be dishonest about when the call was made to try and make your point. RBY was then called for stalling again for backing straight out of bounds. This call, in my opinion, was much more cut and dry. If you want to continue to rehash this match, go back to the thread 1032004 linked.

You and the ref feel one way, Johnson, Gibbons and many others feel differently.

If you wish to look at that call at 45 seconds take a look at the action leading up to that. Fix taking a half shot that was easily blocked does not equate to RBY stalling. If it did then we'd never be able to watch a 7 minute match because there would be non stop stall calls. But in the 30 seconds before that call RBY had his back to the center of the mat, then Fix circles a bit and he then has his back to the center of the mat but both wrestlers are near the center. Fix shoots and RBY has a down block and instant counter shot. 

Neither of them was stalling there. Again, if we start calling action like that stalling, then we'll never make it 7 minutes. Ever. 

Your take that RBY backed straight out is belied by the comments from Gibbons and Johnson. Again, you feel that way but others see it differently. 

 

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16 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You and the ref feel one way, Johnson, Gibbons and many others feel differently.

If you wish to look at that call at 45 seconds take a look at the action leading up to that. Fix taking a half shot that was easily blocked does not equate to RBY stalling. If it did then we'd never be able to watch a 7 minute match because there would be non stop stall calls. But in the 30 seconds before that call RBY had his back to the center of the mat, then Fix circles a bit and he then has his back to the center of the mat but both wrestlers are near the center. Fix shoots and RBY has a down block and instant counter shot. 

Neither of them was stalling there. Again, if we start calling action like that stalling, then we'll never make it 7 minutes. Ever. 

Your take that RBY backed straight out is belied by the comments from Gibbons and Johnson. Again, you feel that way but others see it differently. 

 

Regardless of your feeling on the second stall call, you were being intentionally dishonest to claim the call was made when RBY took a counter shot to make it seem as though the ref was blatantly anti-PSU. That was not when it was made and only discredits your opinion. But it is clear you can't objectively break down a wrestling match with a PSU wrestler.

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18 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Surprised this hasn't been brought up yet.

Stall Camp!

FloWrestling on Twitter: "The wrestling world is about to change forever.  The world premiere of Stall Camp -> https://t.co/tawZNnjBpd  https://t.co/GjIjPVjUFs" / Twitter

If you aren't on the mat how can it be stalling?  I thought wrestling rules only applied on the wrestling mat, id throw the brick here and ask for video review.  ;_;

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28 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Regardless of your feeling on the second stall call, you were being intentionally dishonest to claim the call was made when RBY took a counter shot to make it seem as though the ref was blatantly anti-PSU. That was not when it was made and only discredits your opinion. But it is clear you can't objectively break down a wrestling match with a PSU wrestler.

Not intentionally dishonest. Honestly, while I can agree to how "delayed reaction works, the re shot is so fast that RBY is in on it before the word "stalling" leaves the refs mouth.

"Green. Green Stalling" is how it came from the ref. Well, before the word stalling is out RBY has already re shot. In fact, I am able to freeze the screen as the ref is yelling Green the first time and RBY has already taken multiple steps in the re shot. That is what I said. RBY is in fact countering when the call leaves the refs mouth. 

Freeze it when you hear the word Green the first time and I think you'll be able to see what I am seeing. 

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Freeze it when you hear the word Green the first time and I think you'll be able to see what I am seeing. 

You are way too locked in on the audio of this match. But for the sake of argument, I did this. This was frozen while watching a 0.25 speed at the moment I could hear green. This is less than a half second after Fix took a shot, and all RBY had done was downblock and grab the back of FIx's tricep at this point. Definitely before RBY actually made a half assed grab for the leg as a counter shot. Not nearly as fast as you trying to claim, and no doubt the ref made the decision to make the call as soon as Fix took that shot. It doesn't support your narrative.

fixRBY.JPG

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I don't know how to do the freezing thing, but my screen says 44 seconds when the ref is still yelling "Green" the first time and RBY has clearly re shot by that moment. My POV remains that neither of them were stalling and that Gibbons description of the sequence being an amazing set of calls that you just don't see very often was entirely accurate. 

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If the link works, the video should start at 6:30, just a second or 2 before RBY pinches the ankle. Ref actually starts a count when RBY drops down to the leg but then stops because RBY lets his hands go. RBY proceeds to sit on the ankle without trying to turn or break down Gross for a lengthy sequence:

 

NH2uWZ.gif

 

To me, this qualifies as an egregious stall ride. That doesn't mean that RBY is a staller. It's not like he or the rest of the PSU gang uses this tactic every match. Suggesting so would be silly. As pointed out by another poster there has been a previous thread on the topic and one of the examples was the spiral ride Marinelli put on White. I love me some Marinelli but I can't deny that he was stalling on top in that match. As I said before, I think we and the sport would be better off if these types rides were appropriately penalized, leading to more wrestling. A pipe dream, I know, but that won't stop me from being annoyed when I see these types of rides.

 

Edit: BTW this was an awesome match with action from the opening whistle. Doesn't mean that RBY wasn't stalling in the above sequence.

Edited by Mr. Poopy butthole

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11 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I don't know how to do the freezing thing, but my screen says 44 seconds when the ref is still yelling "Green" the first time and RBY has clearly re shot by that moment. My POV remains that neither of them were stalling and that Gibbons description of the sequence being an amazing set of calls that you just don't see very often was entirely accurate. 

You hit the pause button........but like I said, I did as you requested and paused it as soon as I could hear the ref start yelling green. I did so while watching at 0.25 speed and the above screen shot is what you get. RBY had not taken his counter shot. This is the only one of the three stall calls that was even somewhat questionable, but I don't think it was egregious. If he had just circled in at 30 seconds, the third call would have never happened, but he backed out from repeated shot attempts by Fix. He wasn't "shoved out" until he was already 3 feet out of the circle. Anyways, he earned, and deserved the win in the end. And none of this is to the point of the thread.

The sequence in the match the poopy butthole posted above is even more indefensible, but I'm sure you will try.

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4 hours ago, MSU158 said:

However, he would absolutely stall for segments when riding.  He was an absolute master at sitting on the hips and hitting tilts at will if a wrestler sat back into him.  So some wrestlers got wise and wouldn't come back up and into him.  I specifically remember it happening against Conrad Polz.  What Taylor would then do is get an angry look on his face and wave his hands to the ref like the bottom guy is stalling.  Meanwhile, Taylor is just sitting 100% parallel on the bottom guys hips.

Why is this relevant?  Because, like the ankle ride, it IS stalling, they are obviously using it to force the bottom wrestler to react to it and put themselves in a bad position, but the move itself isn't improving position.  It is baiting the opponent to put themselves in a bad one.  There is a difference.

 

This is the sort of "stalling" that I see with the Iowa tight-waist. If you build a base by raising your hips you get tilted. If you try to bring your elbows in, you get tilted. You're stuck there and eventually you get hit for stalling bc you're lying on your belly. 

Edited by jackwebster

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1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

This is the sort of "stalling" that I see with the Iowa tight-waist. If you build a base by raising your hips you get tilted. If you try to bring your elbows in, you get tilted. You're stuck there and eventually you get hit for stalling bc you're lying on your belly. 

I would agree that there are times that it is.  But, I just don't see it that way in that particular match.  By the time Borschel got him down in the 3rd, there was 47 seconds left and Henrich had been called multiple times for stalling and flat out broke.  He wasn't moving at all at the end and Borschel switched off the head lever as soon as he got the arm back and went to the two on 1.  At that point, Henrich wasn't even trying to move.  

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On 1/11/2022 at 1:34 PM, 1032004 said:

my favorite Jimmy thread yet.

I went with the Penn State ankle pinch.  I considered the double boots, but at least I've occasionally seen people turned with that.   The ankle pinch does nothing to help for a turn.

As much as I appreciate their talent, this makes PSU wrestlers look bush league.  This is not wrestling at all.

Zian’s boots were aggressive — and punishing.

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