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POLL: Most egregious form of "stall ride"?

Most egregious form of "stall ride"  

64 members have voted

  1. 1. What is the most egregious form of "stall ride"?

    • Tony Nelson spiral ride of death
    • Double boots a la Zain
    • Kyle Dake claw
    • Penn State ankle pinch
    • Other (specify in your post)


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3 minutes ago, Sstern said:

As much as I appreciate their talent, this makes PSU wrestlers look bush league.  This is not wrestling at all.

Zian’s boots were aggressive — and punishing.

Instead,  it can be a form of mat return where the top wrestler can then attempt to work up or get the boots in etc. and try for the turn.  So I think in moderation its fine.  

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5 hours ago, Mr. Poopy butthole said:

 

If the link works, the video should start at 6:30, just a second or 2 before RBY pinches the ankle. Ref actually starts a count when RBY drops down to the leg but then stops because RBY lets his hands go. RBY proceeds to sit on the ankle without trying to turn or break down Gross for a lengthy sequence:

 

NH2uWZ.gif

 

To me, this qualifies as an egregious stall ride. That doesn't mean that RBY is a staller. It's not like he or the rest of the PSU gang uses this tactic every match. Suggesting so would be silly. As pointed out by another poster there has been a previous thread on the topic and one of the examples was the spiral ride Marinelli put on White. I love me some Marinelli but I can't deny that he was stalling on top in that match. As I said before, I think we and the sport would be better off if these types rides were appropriately penalized, leading to more wrestling. A pipe dream, I know, but that won't stop me from being annoyed when I see these types of rides.

 

Edit: BTW this was an awesome match with action from the opening whistle. Doesn't mean that RBY wasn't stalling in the above sequence.

I remember watching that match.  A most excellent example of how to stall without getting called for stalling. Utilize the rules down to the last second to get what you want. This is why they call Carl the professor.  I bet this video is the first one out of the vault for new season class, "boys this is why we follow the rules."  

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1 hour ago, Sstern said:

As much as I appreciate their talent, this makes PSU wrestlers look bush league.

If you want to see bush league PSU wrestling, check out Matt Brown dropping to a knee to get a locking hands call for his national title.

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20 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

If you want to see bush league PSU wrestling, check out Matt Brown dropping to a knee to get a locking hands call for his national title.

Wasn't there some controversy about Matt possibly moving Wilps' hands together as well? I guess the match is probably still out there so I can watch for myself but I really don't like watching Matt wrestle so I'll avoid that for now.

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9 hours ago, Mr. Poopy butthole said:

Wasn't there some controversy about Matt possibly moving Wilps' hands together as well? I guess the match is probably still out there so I can watch for myself but I really don't like watching Matt wrestle so I'll avoid that for now.

I could be mistaken as that is a common trait of mine but I think he more kept them together than moved them together.

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The sitting on the ankle with a claw or just chopping is pretty blatant stall lol. But hey, me explaining this to Tbar calling me “you Iowa fans” so he’s not exactly going to be a rational participant in this discussion. I don’t think ankle rides were a part of his 5 varsity middle school matches

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On 1/12/2022 at 5:50 PM, lu_alum said:

If you want to see bush league PSU wrestling, check out Matt Brown dropping to a knee to get a locking hands call for his national title.

Confirmed.  Issue compounded by a ref who must have been watching Barney Fife reruns when he reviewed the video.

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It’s so whiney…the most egregious form of stalling is the guy on bottom who has not had the coaching or lacks the motivation to learn how to create independence for himself and to challenge/defy the top man to keep him down.  First, learn the “prevention” of the techniques that leave you so…helpless. There are many. Secondly, there are "counters", if you failed at prevention, for virtually everything except ignorance and laziness. Learn them. What is the bottom man's responsibility? It's to challenge and dare the top guy to control you and dominate you. Not, "Someone help me! He has my ankle! He has my wrist! He has my arm behind my back! He hooked my ankle! He won’t let me off my tummy! He put the claw on me! He threw legs!.…He won’t let me out! He's stalling! He's getting riding time! Please change the rules! Please make him stop!"  Uuugghh, this makes my head hurt!  Secondly, wrestling is about controlling your opponent. That’s the bottom line.  Everything you are doing is trying to control the guy across from you…control the tie up, control the setup, control his setup, control his wrists, control his elbows, control his shots, control his breakdowns, control his counters, control his hips, control his ankles, control the pace, control the edge, control his ability to control you. If you don't like being controlled on bottom, learn how to prevent it or counter it. Free at last, you will be free at last.  (I don't know if Marty wrestled but I liked the mantra)

It’s so typical of today’s mentality…instead of taking responsibility for your situation, complain and whine, blame someone else, change the rules, make excuses, or make it easier for those who lack skill/knowledge.  Classic…take from those who can/do and give to those who can’t/wont, so we can have equity.  

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12 minutes ago, patmilkovich said:

 

It’s so whiney…the most egregious form of stalling is the guy on bottom who has not had the coaching or lacks the motivation to learn how to create independence for himself and to challenge/defy the top man to keep him down.  First, learn the “prevention” of the techniques that leave you so…helpless. There are many. Secondly, there are "counters", if you failed at prevention, for virtually everything except ignorance and laziness. Learn them. What is the bottom man's responsibility? It's to challenge and dare the top guy to control you and dominate you. Not, "Someone help me! He has my ankle! He has my wrist! He has my arm behind my back! He hooked my ankle! He won’t let me off my tummy! He put the claw on me! He threw legs!.…He won’t let me out! He's stalling! He's getting riding time! Please change the rules! Please make him stop!"  Uuugghh, this makes my head hurt!  Secondly, wrestling is about controlling your opponent. That’s the bottom line.  Everything you are doing is trying to control the guy across from you…control the tie up, control the setup, control his setup, control his wrists, control his elbows, control his shots, control his breakdowns, control his counters, control his hips, control his ankles, control the pace, control the edge, control his ability to control you. If you don't like being controlled on bottom, learn how to prevent it or counter it. Free at last, you will be free at last.  (I don't know if Marty wrestled but I liked the mantra)

It’s so typical of today’s mentality…instead of taking responsibility for your situation, complain and whine, blame someone else, change the rules, make excuses, or make it easier for those who lack skill/knowledge.  Classic…take from those who can/do and give to those who can’t/wont, so we can have equity.  

so no such thing as stalling on top then?

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Of course there is ...there's stalling in all positions.  But it's pretty hard to stall on top when the bottom man is very active. Why is it the top man's responsibility to create action? I've seen stalling with russian ties, underhooks, overhooks, inside ties, single shots, elbow ties, half shots...etc. I've seen bottom guys do just enough to not get called, but they were stallin and they were ahead protecting their lead. So if you don't know how to stall effectively, that's not your opponent's fault. Stalling is a part of the game whether you agree with it or not. Don't be the guy who's behind who has to deal with a savvy opponent who knows how to milk it. Be ahead and let him deal with you. And if you don't know to stall, then you are missing one of the great strategies of the game. 

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56 minutes ago, patmilkovich said:

Of course there is ...there's stalling in all positions.  But it's pretty hard to stall on top when the bottom man is very active. Why is it the top man's responsibility to create action? I've seen stalling with russian ties, underhooks, overhooks, inside ties, single shots, elbow ties, half shots...etc. I've seen bottom guys do just enough to not get called, but they were stallin and they were ahead protecting their lead. So if you don't know how to stall effectively, that's not your opponent's fault. Stalling is a part of the game whether you agree with it or not. Don't be the guy who's behind who has to deal with a savvy opponent who knows how to milk it. Be ahead and let him deal with you. And if you don't know to stall, then you are missing one of the great strategies of the game. 

Although I absolutely agree with you in regards to the main purpose of folkstyle wrestling being controlling your opponent, the main point of “stalling” rules are to mandate BOTH wrestlers try to improve their position.  Regardless of learning techniques to thwart many stalling techniques some of these guys are good enough and strong enough to make these techniques very difficult, draining and time consuming to get out of that stalling position and then they would still need to escape or reverse from the basic position before the top man possibly implements the “stalling” ride all over again. 
 

You were so good that your perspective may be slightly clouded. But, it is exceptionally hard to escape from experienced DI wrestlers. Put those wrestlers on inarguably the best team in the country with a track record of positional success across the board and it becomes even harder to stop.   Have that technique be designed to considerably hinder movement and it becomes even harder. 
 

Let’s not forget that even though you are correct in that there are techniques to counter everything, there is also a counter to that counter. On top of that, superior skill and brute strength can and do often trump those techniques, especially when the other wrestler is already in such a disadvantaged position to begin with. 
 

Now, I say all this having been lucky enough that my best position by far was bottom having had the leg strength and explosion necessary to get out fast from most. But, I soon learned that things like that aren’t teachable. Just because I could do it doesn’t mean the next guy could and vice versa. 
 

Finally, in the end, let’s not forget that the main intent of these rules is to create action. By coming out perpendicular when riding you do create more leverage positions to turn with. But, on the flip side you are now not sitting on the opponents hips with all your weight, blocking him off. That creates a give and take ENCOURAGING action on both sides. Which is a good thing!

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One big part of this topic too, is that the "whining" never really comes from the wrestler himself.  This is mostly for fans and, to a lesser extent, coaches.  A vast majority of wrestler, especially DI, are working way too hard in those positions to really notice, let alone complain about stalling.  Now, you will see the complaints on your feet from wrestlers, but I really don't remember seeing it from guys on bottom and I sure don't remember doing it...

Edited by MSU158

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158, It's whiney, regardless of who it is. 

Although I absolutely agree with you in regards to the main purpose of folkstyle wrestling being controlling your opponent, the main point of “stalling” rules are to mandate BOTH wrestlers try to improve their position.  Regardless of learning techniques to thwart many stalling techniques some of these guys are good enough and strong enough to make these techniques very difficult, draining and time consuming to get out of that stalling position and then they would still need to escape or reverse from the basic position before the top man possibly implements the “stalling” ride all over again. Sorry, being one of not great strength or blessed with natural talent, understanding leverage, timing, action/reaction, imbalances, angles,  and torques allowed me to be relatively successful against opponents who possessed much greater strength and natural ability. As they say, "If muscle meant everything, a bull would catch a rabbit." All those muscles need a lot of oxygen to function, so forcing Adonis to work hard was an advantage. I've seen a lot of muscle bound wrestlers get beat, when they were way ahead, because they got tired.  Fatigue makes cowards of us all...Furthermore, it's supposed to be difficult to escape/reverse and it's supposed to be difficult to ride or control the bottom guy...that's what good guys do to each other. If either position was easy no one would "whine" about it. 
 

You were so good that your perspective may be slightly clouded. But, it is exceptionally hard to escape from experienced DI wrestlers. Put those wrestlers on inarguably the best team in the country with a track record of positional success across the board and it becomes even harder to stop.   Have that technique be designed to considerably hinder movement and it becomes even harder. Hmmm...Okie State, Okla Univ, and ISU were the creme de la creme back in the golden era. They were great at mat wrestling...particularly escapes. If you could stop their standup, it increased your chances of success. Like Myron Roderick used to say, "If I can take you down and I can escape, how are you going to beat me?"  You're making excuses as to why one cannot learn to do well unless they are naturally superior or go to a superior coached school. We had many D2 and D3 wrestlers (Clarion, Portland State, Montclair for example) at he NCAA's who performed exceptionally well against the kinds of D1 kids you describe and powerhouse schools of the day.  So are coaches supposed to teach top techniques that make it easier for the bottom man to get out or reverse? I'm kinda getting the idea that you want things to be "easy."  

Let’s not forget that even though you are correct in that there are techniques to counter everything, there is also a counter to that counter. On top of that, superior skill and brute strength can and do often trump those techniques, especially when the other wrestler is already in such a disadvantaged position to begin with. Being on bottom is not a disadvantage unless you are not skilled at the techniques and setups that allow you to escape or reverse.  Being in neutral is a disadvantage if you have no offense and poor defense. Being on top is a disadvantage if you have little knowledge or skill to control the bottom man. So how do you acquire superior skill and brute strength? Are those only found in certain kids and schools? I'll refer you back to the bull/rabbit. From experience I learned that scoring points should take little time and little energy. It should look like you are drilling. Relying on muscle, in my opinion, is not a very solid strategy. 
 

Now, I say all this having been lucky enough that my best position by far was bottom having had the leg strength and explosion necessary to get out fast from most. But, I soon learned that things like that aren’t teachable. Just because I could do it doesn’t mean the next guy could and vice versa. As far as I'm concerned, getting off bottom is an attitude. If you don't like being there, you will do the work, study the techniques, and practice the skills necessary to be successful. Being on top is an attitude. You have to hate people escaping because they are better on bottom than you are on top. Not being taken down is an attitude. You have to hate being taken down and learn the techniques and practice the skills to prevent it. There are setups to everything.  Takedowns, riding, escapes all have setups and there are counters to the setups.  Because someone traps your ankle, I hear you saying, you're screwed and he's stalling because you don't have an answer to that technique. NO, there's an answer to virtually everything except laziness and ignorance...I should probably add "no heart" too. Can't give anyone that.
 

Finally, in the end, let’s not forget that the main intent of these rules is to create action. By coming out perpendicular when riding you do create more leverage positions to turn with. But, on the flip side you are now not sitting on the opponents hips with all your weight, blocking him off. That creates a give and take ENCOURAGING action on both sides. Which is a good thing! Perhaps I interpreted the rules differently. I thought the intent was to score more points than my opponent within the confines of the rules. If I'm stalling and it's obvious, call me. If I'm stalling and it's very difficult to detect...too bad for you. Part of my job as a wrestler was to expose my opponent's stalling. But then again, perhaps my brain had superior skill and strength. I rather enjoying pitting my knowledge, skill, work ethic, strategy, technique, and conditioning against my opponents' like qualities.

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On 1/14/2022 at 1:25 PM, 1032004 said:

so no such thing as stalling on top then?

Here is the problem. One group of fans hates what they describe as sitting on the ankle. They call it stalling. 

Ok. then what do you make of the top wrestler simply "looking busy" on top but not actually coming close to generating any additional offense or improvement in position. Just sort of bouncing around, able to just keep his weight on the bottom man, not do much if anything else, but able to "just ride" for 2 minutes. I think by your definition and that of plenty of others that this top wrestler is surely stalling. Is this what you believe? 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is the problem. One group of fans hates what they describe as sitting on the ankle. They call it stalling. 

Ok. then what do you make of the top wrestler simply "looking busy" on top but not actually coming close to generating any additional offense or improvement in position. Just sort of bouncing around, able to just keep his weight on the bottom man, not do much if anything else, but able to "just ride" for 2 minutes. I think by your definition and that of plenty of others that this top wrestler is surely stalling. Is this what you believe? 

The thread subject is about egregious forms of stalling on top. What you're describing is a little more ambiguous. It could be stalling, could also just be closely matched wrestlers going back and forth in par terre. RBY's ankle ride against Gross is blatant

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1977,  My belief, if you are directing this to me, is if the bottom man is not doing his part to truly escape/reverse, then as the top man you have to "look busy", to avoid the stalling call and to make him look like he's stalling. There are plenty of wrestlers who are smart enough on bottom to not open themselves up to being turned...so his consequence is to be ridden...which translates to riding time, him tiring from battling the "look busy" techniques (which can translate to slower reactions if/when you end up in neutral), frustration because he knows he can't get away, he's not scoring, and you're in his head. Those are the consequences for the bottom man and if the top man is "looking busy" correctly, he isn't expending much energy, he's not in danger, he's not going to get called, and he's racking up RT. Additionally, the way the rules are structured now, the bottom man has the advantage. If top man goes below the waist with his hands, he has 5 seconds to transition or get called. That means there is no requirement for the bottom man to adjust, counter, or otherwise do something that may expose him to a more consequential position. In other words, all he has to do is wait 5 seconds and his bottom extremities are free. And, yes, I believe in using stalling as a tactic/strategy. Get ahead of a good kid and as my dad would say, "Cut Grass." His cue for "stall mode," "look busy," or however you want to phrase it. Smart wrestlers figure it out...and I consider myself a smart, rather than muscular, naturally gifted, wrestler. I also think it's very easy to sit in the stands, feeding one's pie hole, sipping a coke, admiring one's once flat stomach and well sculpted pecs, and demand more action.  When you are actually out there for 8 min in our day, 7 now, working against all the pressures, pulls, pushes, torques, imbalances, actions/reactions, and leverages, it's very exhausting. So to demand constant action from both combatants is rather unrealistic.Stalling, whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, is an important and vital part of any successful wrestler's arsenal.

 

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3 hours ago, patmilkovich said:

1977,  My belief, if you are directing this to me, is if the bottom man is not doing his part to truly escape/reverse, then as the top man you have to "look busy", to avoid the stalling call and to make him look like he's stalling. There are plenty of wrestlers who are smart enough on bottom to not open themselves up to being turned...so his consequence is to be ridden...which translates to riding time, him tiring from battling the "look busy" techniques (which can translate to slower reactions if/when you end up in neutral), frustration because he knows he can't get away, he's not scoring, and you're in his head. Those are the consequences for the bottom man and if the top man is "looking busy" correctly, he isn't expending much energy, he's not in danger, he's not going to get called, and he's racking up RT. Additionally, the way the rules are structured now, the bottom man has the advantage. If top man goes below the waist with his hands, he has 5 seconds to transition or get called. That means there is no requirement for the bottom man to adjust, counter, or otherwise do something that may expose him to a more consequential position. In other words, all he has to do is wait 5 seconds and his bottom extremities are free. And, yes, I believe in using stalling as a tactic/strategy. Get ahead of a good kid and as my dad would say, "Cut Grass." His cue for "stall mode," "look busy," or however you want to phrase it. Smart wrestlers figure it out...and I consider myself a smart, rather than muscular, naturally gifted, wrestler. I also think it's very easy to sit in the stands, feeding one's pie hole, sipping a coke, admiring one's once flat stomach and well sculpted pecs, and demand more action.  When you are actually out there for 8 min in our day, 7 now, working against all the pressures, pulls, pushes, torques, imbalances, actions/reactions, and leverages, it's very exhausting. So to demand constant action from both combatants is rather unrealistic.Stalling, whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, is an important and vital part of any successful wrestler's arsenal.

 

I don’t think that people not understanding stalling happens. I think it’s the egregious stuff that you used to not be able to get away with with so long and so blatantly. Good stalling with the way it used to be called was much more entertaining and strategic 

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6 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Pat, glad you posted because you have encapsulated the whole "I want something to be given to me that I didn't work hard enough to earn on my own" mentality. Awesome!

Hey middle school wrestler. He literally admitted the ride is stalling. That isn’t his point. You’ve been dying on the hill saying it isn’t stalling. You really are a slippery little worm with your backtracking and moving goalposts 

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