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Katie

What do wrestlers consent to?

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If someone has their “oil checked” during a match, can he or she file a criminal complaint for sexual assault?  Sue for damages?  Or does every wrestler out there implicitly consent to being touched in that manner?

What about being choked or strangled in an illegal hold? Or punched? Or threatened with bodily harm? Or being intentionally injured?

Does anyone know?

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If somebody acts blatantly outside the rules of the sport and it leads to injury you could absolutely sue.  An illegal slam-probably can't sue.  A punch, a bite, and yes an oil check-probably can sue.

 

Here's an example of it leading to criminal charges:  https://www.bhpioneer.com/sports/wrestlers-conviction-for-attempted-rape-upheld/article_8ab080ed-69c0-54d8-8198-050219a5daca.html

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10 minutes ago, potentiallydangerous said:

What a stupid attempt at a topic. The original poster above is truly mentally ill and a moron.

Katie? Really? No. Not truly mentally ill, and not a moron. 

Maybe try to dial it back a bit if you want to be taken seriously.

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Whenever anyone attempted a butt drag on my with a little extra finger, I would always make them pay for it.  When on top, I would dig my chin savagely into their back, constantly, and aggressively, and engage in Max Murin style headmashing from neutral.  I hate that kind stuff and won't stand for it.  Choked or strangled is a different story - and I'll hope that the ref will step in when necessary.  If he doesn't, hopefully my team would get my back.  And from bottom, whenever you can sense their head up slightly high, throw your had backward in hopes of smashing their face.  

Edited by flyingcement

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27 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

If somebody acts blatantly outside the rules of the sport and it leads to injury you could absolutely sue.  An illegal slam-probably can't sue.  A punch, a bite, and yes an oil check-probably can sue.

 

Here's an example of it leading to criminal charges:  https://www.bhpioneer.com/sports/wrestlers-conviction-for-attempted-rape-upheld/article_8ab080ed-69c0-54d8-8198-050219a5daca.html

I had not seen that story before. The way the article is written, it sounds like in North Dakota, whether a wrestling-related act can be criminal depends in part on whether the act is deemed a legitimate wrestling technique.  I suppose that could be a question for a jury.

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1 minute ago, Katie said:

I had not seen that story before. The way the article is written, it sounds like in North Dakota, whether a wrestling-related act can be criminal depends in part on whether the act is deemed a legitimate wrestling technique.  I suppose that could be a question for a jury.

Penetration is not part of the move.  I think it should be pretty clear cut.  Grazing probably is allowed (unfortunately), but I would personally retaliate in dramatic fashion.

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12 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

Penetration is not part of the move.  I think it should be pretty clear cut.  Grazing probably is allowed (unfortunately), but I would personally retaliate in dramatic fashion.

I would not be surprised if some of these questions have never been answered before, because of all the hassle that comes with filing something, the difficulty of proving damages (in many cases), the cost of seeking legal advice, and perhaps a culture of simply retaliating in kind (as you allude to).

As to whether penetration is part of the move… would it matter legally speaking that it seems to happen somewhat consistently?  I really don’t know. It would be interesting to see the judge’s reasoning in that North Dakota case.

Edited by Katie

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8 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If somebody acts blatantly outside the rules of the sport and it leads to injury you could absolutely sue.  An illegal slam-probably can't sue.  A punch, a bite, and yes an oil check-probably can sue.

 

Here's an example of it leading to criminal charges:  https://www.bhpioneer.com/sports/wrestlers-conviction-for-attempted-rape-upheld/article_8ab080ed-69c0-54d8-8198-050219a5daca.html

Here's another - https://abc30.com/archive/7908192/

Interestingly these both seem to stem from practice, don't think I've seen charges on a butt drag from a match.  Pretty sure punches thrown have resulted in charges though - https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/16074

Back to "oil checks," I'm sure some people may remember this incident from a few years ago where a wrestler was called for flagrant misconduct.  I don't hate that call and think the oil check has no place in wrestling but think I agree with what I said at the time that I think a more appropriate penalty during a match would be unsportsmanlike conduct.    Interestingly most of the comments particularly on twitter seemed to have no issue with the move - 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If somebody acts blatantly outside the rules of the sport and it leads to injury you could absolutely sue.  An illegal slam-probably can't sue.  A punch, a bite, and yes an oil check-probably can sue.

 

Here's an example of it leading to criminal charges:  https://www.bhpioneer.com/sports/wrestlers-conviction-for-attempted-rape-upheld/article_8ab080ed-69c0-54d8-8198-050219a5daca.html

Those charges applied to conduct outside of practice and competition.

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41 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Here's another - https://abc30.com/archive/7908192/

Interestingly these both seem to stem from practice, don't think I've seen charges on a butt drag from a match.  Pretty sure punches thrown have resulted in charges though - https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/16074

Back to "oil checks," I'm sure some people may remember this incident from a few years ago where a wrestler was called for flagrant misconduct.  I don't hate that call and think the oil check has no place in wrestling but think I agree with what I said at the time that I think a more appropriate penalty during a match would be unsportsmanlike conduct.    Interestingly most of the comments particularly on twitter seemed to have no issue with the move - 

 

 

 

The hardest part of all this would have to be proving it was intentional vs. incidental.  I mean you are in a competition where contact is expected.  So, you can't assume that any contact would be intentional or even criminal like you could in a normal setting. I mean at some point there is incidental contact at basically every part of the body.  Does anyone have a record of the final legal results of this case.  I just can't imagine anything criminal holding up in court.  

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9 hours ago, Katie said:

If someone has their “oil checked” during a match, can he or she file a criminal complaint for sexual assault?  Sue for damages?  Or does every wrestler out there implicitly consent to being touched in that manner?

What about being choked or strangled in an illegal hold? Or punched? Or threatened with bodily harm? Or being intentionally injured?

Does anyone know?

I do not think that sports participation constitutes consent to conduct by other participants that is criminal in the nature of an assault.  The lines are tougher to draw in combat sports, including where the conduct is close to bona fide competitive conduct.  Intending to injure is not a legitimate part of sports, even wrestling.  Intent to injure or otherwise stray outside of the bona fide competitive conduct can be inferred from the conduct itself, from accompanying words then or later, and from prior such acts that might show a modus operandi (like its the third time a wrestler choked out an opponent or head butted someone in competition during the same season).   I assume prosecutions and pressing charges from wrestling assaults are extremely rare and I never heard of either occuring (did not check the link in this string).  I think this is because the culture does not generally encourage or tolerate the conduct. AD's, University Presidents, and leagues will police programs in addtion to coaches and officials.

My sense is that the culture outside of U.S. folkstyle/collegiate wrestling may be (at least slightly) more tolerant in some areas and that it gets a little more dangerous to compete in freestlyle and internationally - but I do not really know and just infer this anecdotally.   

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1 minute ago, jp157 said:

Like mentioned. There have been lawsuits, successful ones over it

I guess it would be possible if you could prove it has happened multiple times.  In just referring to the 2 case listed in this thread:  The 1st doesn't appear to really be wrestling action related at all and the second seemed to hover over 1 incident in practice where it would basically come down to "he said, she said".

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

 

 

 

One one minor point- he wasn't hit with 3 match penalty points. He was hit with 3 penalties. However, he was also hit with 3 team points (all they scored overall btw) besides losing the 4 he scored in a first round fall. The transcript shows the last one as a second USC following a "penalty" (assume unnecessary roughness) but the team score shows -3 and then a subsequent forfeit. 

Hard to see the specifics of the hand position except it was at least near by. Interesting to see the ref in good position to see it at first then walked past and then circled back and made the call. The Exeter kid didn't seem interested or affected by the first two calls. I wonder if the ref got tired of his shenanigans.

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2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

I guess it would be possible if you could prove it has happened multiple times.  In just referring to the 2 case listed in this thread:  The 1st doesn't appear to really be wrestling action related at all and the second seemed to hover over 1 incident in practice where it would basically come down to "he said, she said".

I heard about another case but it was an FCA* guy that liked to use hyperbole a lot. 

*nothing against FCA before anyone screeches

 

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3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Agreed.  By the way I read it, it didn't have anything to do with wrestling AT ALL.

At all?  Happened on the team bus, with teammates.  This is learned behavior from wrestling culture, IMO.  I posted my comment because suing for what goes on in a staged event is probably different from suing in other contexts.

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Perhaps if our culture weren't so low-brow as to name it "checking oil" it wouldn't sound like assault. Certainly, when the boys do that on the bus, the intention is abusive. 

"Ischium Pull/Drag" or "Ischial Lever/Handle" would be a brow-line higher than "Butt Drag". 

Wrestlers aren't allowed to grab their opponent by the nose or eye sockets, even though those are very useful skeletal levers. If we made a rule against contact with the subpubic angle, that would make officiating crotch locks and lifts tricky. 

1621468819_ScreenShot2022-01-21at10_50_39AM.png.5625bc138511b5f0e28a11540945b62b.png

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

At all?  Happened on the team bus, with teammates.  This is learned behavior from wrestling culture, IMO.  I posted my comment because suing for what goes on in a staged event is probably different from suing in other contexts.

Sorry, I meant the “Act” of wrestling at all. Meaning it wasn’t don’t During the course of normal wrestling practice or competition. 

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2 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

At all?  Happened on the team bus, with teammates.  This is learned behavior from wrestling culture, IMO.  I posted my comment because suing for what goes on in a staged event is probably different from suing in other contexts.

"Learned behavior" from wrestling culture? IF anyone is teaching this or condoning it they need to be removed from the sport.

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