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Dr_Gonzo

Fear

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Dake said something before wrestling Taylor in the finals that resonated with me. He said simply "I'm not afraid of him." He said everyone else is afraid of Taylor and he isn't. I was just watching Courts and Ruth. You can tell Courts doesn't believe for one second he can win that match. You can tell he doesn't even believe he can finish a shot and the thing is he probably could have. But he was beat by fear before he ever took the mat. Not that Taylor and Ruth wouldn't win anyway because they would but I do think most American wrestlers are simply afraid of Taylor and Ruth and that is an advantage. My question is (and maybe this is better suited for the international forum but I'll post it here) do the international guys follow our guys collegiately at all? Will Taylor and Ruth have the same advantage when they take the mat in Russia? My guess is they will not. I'm not sure if would even matter at the University level but I'm still curious.

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It is doubtful that Taylor or Ruth are even known overseas, let alone feared. The only name they know over there is Burroughs. Thats pretty much all they NEED to know and/or "fear". They may also know of Stieber due to his FS wins against quality guys but other than that i doubt they fear anyone from here other than JB.

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So a kid that wasn't in the postseason lineup goes 14-9 (at one point hit a cement mixer... im not real sure passive/scared wrestlers try those) with the 2x national champ and you use him as an example for poor mentality? Laughable.

 

Not that i need to defend my point further, but beyond the obvious non-q hanging relatively well with arguably the most dominant wrestler in the NCAA, Ruth grew up in Courts' dad's program. I believe that Kenny knew, along with most of us who've seen Ruth develop(before he had a big name and people weren't afraid to shoot), if you don't catch a clean leg on Ed you better get out of dodge before he's behind you. I'd say the approach was more than solid.

 

Strategy and fear are two completely different things.

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I didn't mean to insult Courts. I like him. Like I said in another thread I think Courts has a ton of upside. I feel like he could have possibly scored more from the front headlock position. I had just watched the match so it was fresh in my mind. And yes I do believe most wrestlers fear Ruth and Taylor. Dake apparently thought so too because he said it in an interview. Again I really like Kenny Courts. If that's what you took from my post you missed my point and I apologize for that, my fault. Big Courts fan here.

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Didn't take it that way and not personally defending him, just counterpointing and thought I'd throw their elementary days in there as a fun fact.

 

To the original point, and possibly the trigger to my defense of "under aggression" (never liked the strategizers always been a forward first guy) I actually had quite the opposite observation on Kilgore. He seems to be overly fearless and its costing him against guys who can use angles.

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I am guessing some of the other countries athletes may not even have televisions or waste their time with them. Probably out farming 1,000 head of Yak or something and throwing cabers in their spare time to worry about how someone did at the D1 National Tournament. But if they do have TV....as hard as it is to find coverage on wrestling here, I doubt they will ever see Fortune, until he is tossing them!

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Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson cause he did not fear him. Losing his mother less than a month away from his biggest fight surely changed his mindset and gave him all the motivation he needed. I remember watching that fight live and you could see Douglas gave Tyson zero respect. Not only did he KO Tyson, he stripped him of his invincibility.

 

Now watching Ruth wrestle you can see his extreme confidence, and most of his opponents feel out matched and lose before they even get on the mat. No one is unbeatable. Just say Courts would have pinned Ruth, he was darn close too. That would have given a lot of top guys some confidence they can beat Ruth, and Courts mindset would have improved. Plus Ruth would have lost some of his swagger and in the back of his mind that would always be there. Just like a fighter when he gets knocked out for the first time, it is always in his mind and will usually happen again.

 

You have to love Dake's attitude and belief in himself. That is the main reason he beat Taylor. Obviously he is super skilled and all that other stuff, but basically his mentality is what separates him from other wrestlers.

 

Another point I would like to add about Taylor and Ruth is sure they were awesome confident wrestlers out of HS, but with them getting to wrestle with the "greatest college wrestler" daily surely makes them feel unbeatable. I mean if they can hang with Cael and learn from him, who should they worry about? On the college scene of course. Internationally I doubt anyone would fear them.

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Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson cause he did not fear him. Losing his mother less than a month away from his biggest fight surely changed his mindset and gave him all the motivation he needed. I remember watching that fight live and you could see Douglas gave Tyson zero respect. Not only did he KO Tyson, he stripped him of his invincibility.

 

Now watching Ruth wrestle you can see his extreme confidence, and most of his opponents feel out matched and lose before they even get on the mat. No one is unbeatable. Just say Courts would have pinned Ruth, he was darn close too. That would have given a lot of top guys some confidence they can beat Ruth, and Courts mindset would have improved. Plus Ruth would have lost some of his swagger and in the back of his mind that would always be there. Just like a fighter when he gets knocked out for the first time, it is always in his mind and will usually happen again.

 

You have to love Dake's attitude and belief in himself. That is the main reason he beat Taylor. Obviously he is super skilled and all that other stuff, but basically his mentality is what separates him from other wrestlers.

 

Another point I would like to add about Taylor and Ruth is sure they were awesome confident wrestlers out of HS, but with them getting to wrestle with the "greatest college wrestler" daily surely makes them feel unbeatable. I mean if they can hang with Cael and learn from him, who should they worry about? On the college scene of course. Internationally I doubt anyone would fear them.

Not that I disagree with you entirely on the "invincibilty" hypothesis, but Bubba showed the world DT could be beaten, but other than Dake he takes everyone to the woodshed. I think that the factor larger than fear with everyone they face, is the confidence of the great ones themselves. Dake knew he was going to win. Ruth knew it. I think Taylor knew he was going to beat Dake and once in awhile we are lucky enough to see two very skilled guys who believe they are going to win every single time.

That is imo what makes the records, not the opponent fearing the victor. The victor kowing he is going to win and imposing that will onto his opponent until he breaks.

There admittedly are matches though where guys are beaten before they ever shake hands.

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You have to love Dake's attitude and belief in himself. That is the main reason he beat Taylor. Obviously he is super skilled and all that other stuff, but basically his mentality is what separates him from other wrestlers.

 

Another point I would like to add about Taylor and Ruth is sure they were awesome confident wrestlers out of HS, but with them getting to wrestle with the "greatest college wrestler" daily surely makes them feel unbeatable. I mean if they can hang with Cael and learn from him, who should they worry about? On the college scene of course. Internationally I doubt anyone would fear them.

 

Good post, but I would disagree a little on two things.

 

First, Dake is by far the mentally toughest college wrestler I've ever seen. I remember an interview he did after winning 141 as a true frosh in which he was asked whether he would stay at his weight or move up since 149 had cleared out a bit due to graduating seniors. He aaid at the time he would never consider who was at a weight to be a factor and would always make a decision based on where he felt he could wrestle best. At the time I didn't 100% believe him, but now I have zero doubt he was speaking the truth. That said, Dake is also one of the best natural athletes in the country, and that has a lot to do with his success too. He is not as powerful as Burroughs and not as quick as JO, but his combination of strength, speed, balance, reflexes, and for lack of a better word, instincts, is unique. That's nearly as big a reason for his success as his iron mind.

 

Second, no way no how are Taylor or Ruth hanging with Cael. Both of them wrestling Cael at once might eke out a period out of him on a good day. But I get the gist of what you were saying.

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Second, no way no how are Taylor or Ruth hanging with Cael. Both of them wrestling Cael at once might eke out a period out of him on a good day. But I get the gist of what you were saying.

 

That may be truth for Taylor, but I bet Ruth gives Cael all he can handle at collegiate, and then some. Ruth is a goddamn monster. Let's not forget, Cael was a great wrestler, but he slipped alot from his peak.

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Until Cael sucked down to 184 he was consistently beating Varner and Sigman (when Les made the world team). You seriously think he regressed enough for a small college 184, no matter how great, to be right there with him? Doubt it. Ruth certainly isn't competing evenly with Varner or Sigman. If for nothing else Cael is too big for Ruth.

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Until Cael sucked down to 184 he was consistently beating Varner and Sigman (when Les made the world team). You seriously think he regressed enough for a small college 184, no matter how great, to be right there with him? Doubt it. Ruth certainly isn't competing evenly with Varner or Sigman. If for nothing else Cael is too big for Ruth.

I remember reading a quote from Ruth or Wright that covered them getting to go against Cael and it gave me the impression that nobody is even close to Cael still. So I agree with you, I doubt Cael has fallen that far off.

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Second, no way no how are Taylor or Ruth hanging with Cael. Both of them wrestling Cael at once might eke out a period out of him on a good day. But I get the gist of what you were saying.

 

That may be truth for Taylor, but I bet Ruth gives Cael all he can handle at collegiate, and then some. Ruth is a goddamn monster. Let's not forget, Cael was a great wrestler, but he slipped alot from his peak.

 

I would bet $10k on Cael every time, probably more. I'm serious. Cael would tech Ruth, and in freestyle, maybe in the first period. And I think Ruth is a top 3 guy next year at any weight. Cael is that much better and that much bigger. Cael is 33, past his peak but not some two-pump chump who's over the hill.

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Cael was a great wrestler but face it, he's giving up 10+ years to Ruth, probably giving up strength, agility, and quickness. Cael dropped from 1st in the world in 2004 to 5th a couple years ago. I like Cael and think he's a classy and smart ambassador for the sport of wrestling, but nobody stays on top forever. Ed Ruth is a flatout monster, and the idea of anybody teching Ruth in the first period is preposterous. Ruth is probably one of the top 10 collegiate wrestlers in history in his own right (imo anyway). Cael would probably beat Ruth, granted, but I think it would be a lot closer than you think.

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I'd bet it'd be a lot more of a whooping than what you ^^^ think.

 

Greg Jones, Jon Trenge, Ben Askren, Jake Herbert, Chris Pendleton...you gotta ask yourself how would Ed Ruth do against these guys? Sorry, but nobody Ruth faced at 174 or 184 in his three years of competition matches up to any of these guys. Keep in mind that Ruth got manhandled in freestyle by Phil Keddy just two April's ago.

 

Ruth is phenomenal. Awesome wrestler. Will easily win his third NCAA title next year, no doubt in my mind about it. Beat Sanderson or keep it close? If so, only because he wrestles him everyday in the room. Even then I am skeptical. I say Sanderson manhandles him.

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Buster Douglas beat Mike Tyson cause he did not fear him. Losing his mother less than a month away from his biggest fight surely changed his mindset and gave him all the motivation he needed. I remember watching that fight live and you could see Douglas gave Tyson zero respect. Not only did he KO Tyson, he stripped him of his invincibility.

 

 

Well, that is an interesting example. Mike Tyson actually talks frequently of being absolutely petrified with fear of almost every single opponent he faced right up until the moment the fight started. That is a lot of the reason he acted the way he did, a very extreme fight or flight response that overwhelms the doubtful, analytic, 'newer' parts of the brain. I don't believe anyone without a fairly severe psychophysiological disorder could stand in front of Tyson without fear, (and the same probably holds true for being highlighted on ESPN to basically represent your entire sport). Buster Douglas beat Tyson because Cus D'Amato died, he was being exploited by Don King who made him drop his manager and best trainer, he screwed up his marriage, finances, sobriety, and training routine, and basically lost all direction in his life.

 

That said, Dake is the most courageous, steel-nerved NCAA wrestler I've seen. He doesn't really do anything 'special' he just does normal things with more conviction and determination than any of his opponents. There is no 'figuring out Dake'...you actually have to out-wrestle and out-will him (good luck!).

 

If U.S. wrestlers have anything going for them it is that they are so unknown after not competing internationally in freestyle that foreigners overlook them...not fear them

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I heard that Cael had to stop wrestling with Varner prior to the Olympics because he was beating him so bad in practice. He had to let Varner get his confidence up, which wasn't going to happen wrestling Cael.

 

Ruth hasn't polished his skills yet, he has decent technique, but Cael has great technique. The other factor Cael knows he is going to win, Ruth is hoping to win when he wrestles Cael. Older guys have such a great skill level and confidence they can beat up the guys they are coaching.

 

I saw Tommy Evans do it at OU, i've heard the same stories about Gable at Iowa, I am sure Cael is doing the same thing at PSU.

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Ruth is MUCH better in Folkstyle than Freestyle... or has been previously anyway.

 

Ruth just toys with EVERYONE hes faced in college in the last two years. I mean come on Ruth made it look easy despite a returning NCAA champ in Bosak and a 2x NCAA finalist in Hamlin who he beat up on for a 12 - 4 major. Actually I believe up until the NCAA finals Hamlin had never been beaten by more than a decision but I could be wrong there.

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Ruth is MUCH better in Folkstyle than Freestyle... or has been previously anyway.

 

Ruth just toys with EVERYONE hes faced in college in the last two years. I mean come on Ruth made it look easy despite a returning NCAA champ in Bosak and a 2x NCAA finalist in Hamlin who he beat up on for a 12 - 4 major. Actually I believe up until the NCAA finals Hamlin had never been beaten by more than a decision but I could be wrong there.

 

Assuming we're only talking official NCAA bouts during his 4 active years then technically he lost by default and med forfeit at the EIWAs immediately prior, but otherwise you are correct. I quickly scanned Boomer's site and I think I saw a 12-5 loss somewhere early on.

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Gimp - Well I meant he hasn't been bonus scored on until his last NCAA finals. Like pins, techs, majors, etc where the match is wrestled to completion and one guys hand is raised.

 

Hmm... 12 - 5, i'd be curious to see who beat him that bad but a 7 point spread is still a regular decision.

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Gimp - Well I meant he hasn't been bonus scored on until his last NCAA finals. Like pins, techs, majors, etc where the match is wrestled to completion and one guys hand is raised.

 

Hmm... 12 - 5, i'd be curious to see who beat him that bad but a 7 point spread is still a regular decision.

 

 

What point did you think I missed when said what I said basically agreeing with you?

 

Other than the recurrence of injury at the EIWAs that's what happened.

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