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The_Education

Best non-Hodge winners of the last 5 years

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For comparison, the actual winners were:

 

2008: Metcalf

2009: Herbert

2010: Ness

2011: Burroughs

2012: Taylor

 

It occurred to me, which of these years, if any, didn't have any controversy? Did 2009 have controversy or was Herbert pretty much the consensus? Burroughs had the toughest weight class in years but Herbert had way more pins. Obviously in 2008, Metcalf had the loss. In 2010 some folks thought Varner deserved it over Ness. 2011 Oliver had way more pins that Burroughs. And in 2012 Taylor had a pretty weak weight which might have inflated his margin of victory, and Dake won his 3rd title. Adding to the controversy, Dake stomped Taylor at the Olympic Trials. Did 2009 have the least amount of controversy?

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For comparison, the actual winners were:

 

2008: Metcalf

2009: Herbert

2010: Ness

2011: Burroughs

2012: Taylor

 

It occurred to me, which of these years, if any, didn't have any controversy? Did 2009 have controversy or was Herbert pretty much the consensus? Burroughs had the toughest weight class in years but Herbert had way more pins. Obviously in 2008, Metcalf had the loss. In 2010 some folks thought Varner deserved it over Ness. 2011 Oliver had way more pins that Burroughs. And in 2012 Taylor had a pretty weak weight which might have inflated his margin of victory, and Dake won his 3rd title. Adding to the controversy, Dake stomped Taylor at the Olympic Trials. Did 2009 have the least amount of controversy?

 

Herbert in 2009 was as controversial as the 1789 and 1792 elections were.

 

Incidentally, the Takedown Wrestling Media Dual Impact Index hasn't correctly predicted the Hodge Trophy winner since that 2009 season.

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Herbert in 2009 was as controversial as the 1789 and 1792 elections were.

 

So then we have to decide which of the remaining selections best represents the election of 1824, in which John Quincy Adams lost both the popular vote and the electoral college, but won the election.

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Herbert was a slam dunk after Metcalf lost.

 

If Metcalf doesn't get Caldwell'd it was his to lose.

 

Herbert was the clear #2 until that point, and was the clear 1 after Brent lost.

I'm honestly not sure about that...2009 would have been the equivalent of the election of 1824 had Metcalf beaten Caldwell, I get the feeling...

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Im really getting tired of the "2012 Dake-Taylor Hodge Controversy" comments.

 

It is the farthest thing from a controversy. The Hodge is not a strongest weight class / Most titles / Head to Head match up award, it is NOT. Strength of weight is a criteria, but it is not the be all end all by any means...and Dake's weight was not 2008 149, so this argument applied here is pointless. It is for the most dominant wrestler at his weight class, period. There was no controversy last year, especially between Dake and Taylor. Dake was not more dominant given the criteria, period. Even if ALL the things being said were 100% true (ie. Dake had a tougher weight, he dominated Taylor at the trials therefore he is way better, etc, etc) it DOES NOT follow that Dake should then get the Hodge.

 

Oh and by the way, my favorite part of the "controversy"... Dake wasn't even in 2nd place for the Hodge... *cough* Ruth *cough* :roll:

 

Dake vs. Taylor in the "whos the better wrestler" argument, fine. But there is no Hodge controversy with these two, none. Ness-Herbert was a legitimate Hodge controversy...stick to that please, at least it makes some sort of sense.

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1) Based on the Hodge criteria, there shouldn't be a Dake/Taylor argument. It's Taylor.

2) Based on what we saw this summer, there shouldn't be a "better wrester" argument. It's Dake.

 

Change "better wrestler" to "better freestyle wrestler" and I'll agree as of this point right now.

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Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

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Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

 

Taylor has had 2 shots and is 1 for 2. Dake is 3 for 3...so in that respect he is better, but Burroughs never won 3 titles...is Dake a better wrestler than him? No...you logic is flawed.

 

As for the freestyle result, im not going to beat this up here because it has been in many other places, but if you think that directly correlates to folkstyle then you are simply wrong. Easy way to illustrate that point...Taylor lost to St. John in freestyle...is St John a better wrestler? No. The way the scoring and rules in freestyle are set it...it is much, much different than folk. If you don't see that you are simply wrong.

 

I was just addressing your two justifications directly because I would take Taylor in a folk match (although I concede Dake would probably have to be a slight favorite). For you to say that Dake is a better wrestler is a fair position to hold, and it can be argued well. But to say he is "far and away the better wrestler" is pure nonsense. Taylor has 1 loss in his college career thus far, in the National Finals as a RS Freshman to a Senior returning finalist and former Junior World Champion. He is an undefeated NCAA Champion (as a Soph), and one of the highest scoring / fastest/ most electric wrestlers in the sport right now. NOBODY is "far and away" better than him in regards to folkstyle, absolutely nobody.

 

Freestyle right now is a different story, but that is not what we are discussing here.

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Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

And when did the Hodge Trophy become a lifetime achievement award?

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Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

And when did the Hodge Trophy become a lifetime achievement award?

 

 

EVERY time a discussion of the Hodge begins. Which would be weekly.

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Dake has 3 NCAA titles, Taylor has 1. They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

 

Taylor has had 2 shots and is 1 for 2. Dake is 3 for 3...so in that respect he is better, but Burroughs never won 3 titles...is Dake a better wrestler than him? No...you logic is flawed.

 

As for the freestyle result, im not going to beat this up here because it has been in many other places, but if you think that directly correlates to folkstyle then you are simply wrong. Easy way to illustrate that point...Taylor lost to St. John in freestyle...is St John a better wrestler? No. The way the scoring and rules in freestyle are set it...it is much, much different than folk. If you don't see that you are simply wrong.

 

I was just addressing your two justifications directly because I would take Taylor in a folk match (although I concede Dake would probably have to be a slight favorite). For you to say that Dake is a better wrestler is a fair position to hold, and it can be argued well. But to say he is "far and away the better wrestler" is pure nonsense. Taylor has 1 loss in his college career thus far, in the National Finals as a RS Freshman to a Senior returning finalist and former Junior World Champion. He is an undefeated NCAA Champion (as a Soph), and one of the highest scoring / fastest/ most electric wrestlers in the sport right now. NOBODY is "far and away" better than him in regards to folkstyle, absolutely nobody.

 

Freestyle right now is a different story, but that is not what we are discussing here.

First off, Dake and Burroughs were not contemporaries at the NCAA level. But it is reasonable (if things play out as expected) to say that Dake was a better college wrestler than Burroughs. Was Dake at his "peak" as good as Burroughs at his "peak", I don't think so. It's completely different than Dake and Taylor, they are both at their peak and Taylor got manhandled. (It's also interesting that everyone ingnores the fact that Dake was also ostensibly up a weight class for this match.)

 

The St John thing is tired, but I'll respond. It's completely different. In freestyle, St John won a tight 3 period match, ultimately winning the 3rd period 3-2. That is vastly different than getting teched in one period and then stuck in the next period. Furthermore, at the Big 10's last year St John actually got the first takedown against Taylor and ultimately only lost the match by 3 points. Taylor is better than St John, but not by enough of a margin that it's impossible for St John to win regardless of style. St John had a great match against Taylor at the Big 10s, and had a little better of a match against him that summer. A full summer later, Taylor got on the mat with Dake and got complete dominated. If St John teched and pinned Taylor in freestyle, you might be on to something. That's not what happened, he won a 3-2 period for the win. Dake dominated Taylor, and if you know wrestling (which I'm sure you do) and you watched the match (which I'm sure you did) it's pretty clear that Taylor isn't even on Dake's level. If you are fair, it really shouldn't even be a discussion at this point. Tech...pin.

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Taylor beat St. John 3 times in folk with his worst margin by the same exact margin that Dake won in the finals. Taylor also had several other common opponents with Dake and won by more in almost every match (never by less) To say that Taylor isn't at Dake's level in college wrestling is just flat out stupidity.

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Taylor has the ability to run up the score on people, he can be extremely dominating. That's why he deserved the Hodge. He also has the ability to GET dominated when he faces someone who is on his level technique wise but superior physically (albeit lighter). You just can't watch the Dake/Taylor video and come away thinking that they are on the same level. It is actually MORE dominating than his match with Bubba. Dake dominates from whistle to whistle. (Or whistle to mat slap as the case was.)

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The freestyle versus folkstyle angle on the Dake Taylor match is besides the point. The main thing is that although Dake did dominate, it was only ONE match. To count Taylor out of a rematch in any style is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to say that the match would have been much different in folkstyle, if wrestled at that time on that day. Dake was the better man that day in any style. Looked stronger and more motivated to wrestle. For whatever reason, Taylor looked disinterested in wrestling, possibly fatigued from his previous match, and was beaten on offense, defense, in ties, and scrambles. But guys come back from losses, even lopsided losses, all the time. Caldwell Metcalf anyone?

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The freestyle versus folkstyle angle on the Dake Taylor match is besides the point. The main thing is that although Dake did dominate, it was only ONE match. To count Taylor out of a rematch in any style is ridiculous. It's equally ridiculous to say that the match would have been much different in folkstyle, if wrestled at that time on that day. Dake was the better man that day in any style. Looked stronger and more motivated to wrestle. For whatever reason, Taylor looked disinterested in wrestling, possibly fatigued from his previous match, and was beaten on offense, defense, in ties, and scrambles. But guys come back from losses, even lopsided losses, all the time. Caldwell Metcalf anyone?

 

You are a voice of keen intellect and reason. Well stated.

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1) Taylor is a great wrestler, and certainly Dake has a couple of losses (granted years ago) to wrestlers not as good as Taylor. Certainly it's not out of the realm of possibility that Taylor could beat Dake. Dake is better, but he's not better by a prohibitive margin that Dake would beat him 100 times out of 100.

 

2) Taylor did not seem disinterested in the match until after Dake tossed him to his back. Watch Taylor's reaction after he got pinned, he was visably upset. A big concern with Taylor is whether he can come back from adversity in a match and/or whether he can gut one out. Because of his great offense he hasn't been in that situation often, but when he has faced adversity he has not handled it well. It wasn't fatigue, he seemed to break a few times when Dake manhandled him physically.

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Taylor had 15 minutes to recover from a 3 period match while Dake had an hour. Anyone who doesn't think that was a factor in this match does not understand the sport.............Jerzijo, it's only a matter of time before these guys match up in Free again, so lets see if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. A grand says that Dake will not pin or tf Taylor as you say. We will get a third party to hold the money when we know they are in the same bracket, but I want you to agree now.......oh and that goes for anyone else that has been mouthing off about this result for the past 5 months.

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