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The_Education

Best non-Hodge winners of the last 5 years

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Taylor had 15 minutes to recover from a 3 period match while Dake had an hour. Anyone who doesn't think that was a factor in this match does not understand the sport.............Jerzijo, it's only a matter of time before these guys match up in Free again, so lets see if you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. A grand says that Dake will not pin or tf Taylor as you say. We will get a third party to hold the money when we know they are in the same bracket, but I want you to agree now.......oh and that goes for anyone else that has been mouthing off about this result for the past 5 months.

LOL, way to set the bar so high "Dake will not pin or tf Tayor." That is some kind of stretch goal. Actually, since Dake teched AND pinned Taylor I guess it's reasonable.

 

I heard at the 2011 NCAA's Taylor only had 6 hours of rest while Bubba had 6 and a half. That's probably what it was, not that in both cases Taylor got ourwrestled, physically manhandled and broke mentally.

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Here are a few quotes from you on page one that certainly implies that you think it will be a tf of pin the next time around as well:

 

"You just can't watch the Dake/Taylor video and come away thinking that they are on the same level. It is actually MORE dominating than his match with Bubba. Dake dominates from whistle to whistle. (Or whistle to mat slap as the case was.)"

 

They wrestled head to head and Dake completely destroyed Taylor, and it wasn't some ball grabbing (not like that) or BS freestyle specific stuff. Dake threw Taylor to his back TWICE. Dake is far and away the better wrestler.

 

I'm giving you an opportunity to prove that your arn't just some troll and that you really belive what you say. If a grand is too steep, I'll bet less, whatever you want? Lets set something up so that you can show everyone that you aren't just some annonymous mouth with no backbone?

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If Dake and Taylor weigh in at the same class (again) and wrestle (again) I will bet anything that Dake wins (again). Of course even Taylor cant get pinned in EVERY big match (it justseems that way). But if it is straight up who wins,of course I would take Dake. Dake has proven to be so much better I

SurPrised you didnt ask for odds.

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Tigs-You get worse everday dude. You simply can't handle that your guy got torched and it's sad. I could care less who wins at chess, wrestling, or horseshoes between Kyle Dake and David Taylor, but I know what I saw. Your denial is of epic porportions. Leave everyone who's been "mouthing" off alone man, it makes you look petty. Even if David Taylor did win their next meeting, that doesn't show you know a damn thing. Go ahead and keep betting a grand on a message board hard ass. Every time someone talks about David Taylor, there you are "mouthing off" excuses and calling it reality. Just sad, sad, sad. Not to mention you effectively ruined a perfectly good Hodge winner topic. Can we get back to Varner vs. Ness now please?

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Imagine how "conclusive" that match would have been if Taylor teched Dake and then pinned him.

 

The truth is, when you watch that match three things are really evident, and they are not specific to style.

 

1) Dake is physically superior

2) Dake is technically superior

3) Dake is far tougher mentally

 

If anyone is foolish enOugh to dispute this, please watch the match first.

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Gonzo, amusing how you just make things up and expect people to buy it. Last time I checked, this thread was ruined already by your buddy (alter ego?) jerseyjoe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the one that has wrecked numerous threads with your PSU hating nonsense all summer and got two threads deleted? In regard to my wager offer, as one of the guys that has been mouthing off for the last 5 months, that bet is open to you as well and I can assure you that I am dead serious.

 

btw, jerseyjoe a/k/a Gonzo, if by some chance they do meet in folk this season, I'l give you "guys" Dake straight up.

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Imagine how "conclusive" that match would have been if Taylor teched Dake and then pinned him.

 

The truth is, when you watch that match three things are really evident, and they are not specific to style.

 

1) Dake is physically superior

2) Dake is technically superior

3) Dake is far tougher mentally

 

If anyone is foolish enough to dispute this, please watch the match first.

 

Interesting that now Dake is superior in all these categories, specifically physically, when a few posts earlier you were lobbying to make Dakes win look even better because he "moved up a weight".

 

It is amazing you are still stuck on this freestyle match when it is clear that is not what people are discussing, and it has been shown, multiple times, that freestyle results DO NOT equal folkstyle results (or vice verse... Molinaro vs. Chamberlin anyone?)

 

Another great thing is how you flip-flop on your own opinions. For example, first saying Dake is "far and away the better wrestler" (flat out stupid statement, especially since you are basing it off of 1 single meeting, in freestyle). Then going back on it and saying he is better, but not so much to win 100/100. Now you are back to this list of 3 ways Dake is superior...

 

It is clear you are totally biased against Taylor and/or PSU.

 

**To be clear, it is VERY reasonable to argue that Dake is the better wrestler...but it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument...and it is simply STUPID to say that he is "far and away" better than a kid with 1 career NCAA loss in 70+ matches.

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**To be clear, it is VERY reasonable to argue that Dake is the better wrestler...but it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument...and it is simply STUPID to say that he is "far and away" better than a kid with 1 career NCAA loss in 70+ matches.

 

 

I've been avoiding jumping into this argument, but I couldn't resist anymore. Correlation and causation are two very different concepts. I agree, freestyle results do not equal folkstyle results (this would be causation). But you are simply incorrect when you argue freestyle results do not strengthen an argument for who might win in a folkstyle match (or who is a better wrestler). There is definitely a correlation between freestyle results and folkstyle results (do not try to argue against this). This means that when one wrestler wins in a freestyle match, that wrestler will win more often than not in a folkstyle match (not because of the freestyle match, but more likely because the same things that led to the freestyle win will also lead to the folkstyle win). The freestyle match result did not cause the folkstyle match result, but a freestyle result and folkstyle result will often be the same.

 

Again, this does not mean the folkstyle results will be the same. But you are the one being completely unreasonable when you say "it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler" (and to give you the benefit of the doubt I think you meant folkstyle wrestler). This is not opinion -- this is logic and statistics.

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**To be clear, it is VERY reasonable to argue that Dake is the better wrestler...but it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument...and it is simply STUPID to say that he is "far and away" better than a kid with 1 career NCAA loss in 70+ matches.

 

 

I've been avoiding jumping into this argument, but I couldn't resist anymore. Correlation and causation are two very different concepts. I agree, freestyle results do not equal folkstyle results (this would be causation). But you are simply incorrect when you argue freestyle results do not strengthen an argument for who might win in a folkstyle match (or who is a better wrestler). There is definitely a correlation between freestyle results and folkstyle results (do not try to argue against this). This means that when one wrestler wins in a freestyle match, that wrestler will win more often than not in a folkstyle match (not because of the freestyle match, but more likely because the same things that led to the freestyle win will also lead to the folkstyle win). The freestyle match result did not cause the folkstyle match result, but a freestyle result and folkstyle result will often be the same.

 

Again, this does not mean the folkstyle results will be the same. But you are the one being completely unreasonable when you say "it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler" (and to give you the benefit of the doubt I think you meant folkstyle wrestler). This is not opinion -- this is logic and statistics.

 

If you are going to counter my statements, please understand my position first. If you read the entire thread (which it seems you didn't) and the other areas where I discussed my opinions on this (which I wouldn't expect you to)...then you would know my position, and see how you are completely misrepresenting it here.

 

"it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler" This is a misquote, it is not what I said..."it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument" This is what I actually said, and it has a totally different meaning than how you understood it.

 

I AM NOT saying the freestyle result is meaningless, it definitely has some meaning in regards to folkstyle and who is the better wrestler, but it has much, much less meaning that people trying to use it as a main supporting post in their "Dake is better than Taylor argument"...especially since we are comparing them in folkstyle, given that they are both still in the NCAA

 

The fact of the matter is simple to understand, freestyle scoring is much different than folkstyle. You can get scored against in freestyle and an identical move in folkstyle would be no points at all. (Side not: the actual scoring of the Dake/Taylor freestyle match would have looked much different in folk...but that is not relevant right now). This doesn't even take into account the fact that the top/bottom position is almost non-existent in freestyle under the new rules.

 

Im fine with opposition, and as I already made clear I am fine with people arguing that Dake is a better wrestler than Taylor...but use arguments and reasoning that is relevant...i.e Don't hitch your entire argument on ONE head to head freestyle result...it is ridiculous, and demonstrably so.

 

Saying Dake is the better wrestler (and I do mean folkstyle, obviously, because this is the college board) is not an opinion? I don't even have a response to that...it is such a ridiculous statement.

 

Oh and again, I feel the need to repeat this as much as possible, saying that Dake (or anyone for that matter) is far and away a better college wrestler than Taylor is still extremely stupid.

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I wasn't trying to counter your statement/position, which is why I didn't go through your posts to figure out if you meant what you wrote -- I was trying to point out flawed reasoning that is far too common on this board (not to suggest you have used this flawed reasoning more than once). I'm sorry if you think I misrepresented your position, but it appears what you wrote and what you meant did not match up. As I read it, what I quoted you saying ("it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle result to argue that Dake is the better wrestler") means the same as what you actually wrote ("it is totally unreasonable to use the freestyle head to head as a post in that argument"). You used the phrase "as a post" not "as the post" or "as the only post." To me, this means one post of several possible posts, not the only post. From your response (you wrote "I AM NOT saying the freestyle result is meaningless, it definitely has some meaning in regards to folkstyle and who is the better wrestler") it appears you meant it is unreasonable to use the freestyle match result as the only post in the argument. I agree with that -- using the freestyle match result as one's only argument for predicting a folkstyle result is an incomplete analysis.

 

You also misread my post. I never said Dake being the better wrestler is not an opinion. Reread it and you will agree. I did not say anything about what I think of the Dake/Taylor debate. Furthermore, I agree that "saying that Dake (or anyone for that matter) is far and away a better college wrestler than Taylor is still extremely stupid."

 

Anyway, I think we agree on the argumentative value of the freestyle match outcome. If I am correct, look back at your quote and you will see it did not say what you intended it to say. Regardless, my point still stands -- everyone should understand the two very different concepts of causation and correlation.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_causation

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"Dake is a better wrestler than Taylor" is not an opinion in the sense of "chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream", it is an opinion like "USC is a better football team than Syracuse." You can argue for Syracuse, and it can be your "opinion" that Syracuse is better, but the facts don't support your argument.

 

IRRESPECTIVE of their head to head, Dake has had the better career. Dake won an NCAA title while Taylor was redshirting and wasn't even the best on his team at his weight. Dake then won another title (over a future undefeated NCAA champ) while Taylor got PINNED in the finals. Last year they were both undefeated champs, neither in legendary weights but my OPINION is that Dake's weight was better. And then of course you have what happened this summer. The only argument for Taylor is that he runs up the score big time against a lot of people. That is to his credit, he can truly dominate people in the way that few others can. But to this point, it has not held true against elite opponents. Wrestling history is littered with guy that were awesome on top and can run up the score on 98% of opponents but could never beat the top 2%.

 

Of course freestyle rules are different, and of course the guy that wins in freestyle won't win in folkstyle 100% of the time. (For that matter, the guy that wins in folkstyle won't necessarily win again in folkstyle 100% of the time.) But there is an extremely strong correlation between freestyle victories and folkstyle victories. Coming out of high school, Taylor was actually a MORE accomplished freestyler than was Dake. And then there is the nature of the match. Dake didn't win because of some leglace. He didnt even win because of the two pushouts. He won because on two separate occasions he put Taylor on his back. And that makes you better in any style of wrestling. But that's just my opinion.

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"Dake is a better wrestler than Taylor" is not an opinion in the sense of "chocolate is the best flavor of ice cream", it is an opinion like "USC is a better football team than Syracuse." You can argue for Syracuse, and it can be your "opinion" that Syracuse is better, but the facts don't support your argument.

 

The only argument for Taylor is that he runs up the score big time against a lot of people. That is to his credit, he can truly dominate people in the way that few others can. But to this point, it has not held true against elite opponents. Wrestling history is littered with guy that were awesome on top and can run up the score on 98% of opponents but could never beat the top 2%.

 

I am going to respond to these two chunks....

 

First, USC to Syracuse is NOT Dake to Taylor. This is one of the most ridiculous things you have said yet. USC to Syracuse is more Like Dake to Taylor's back-up. USC to Alabama would be a more accurate analogy for Dake - Taylor....again just showing your glaring (and more and more obvious) bias against Taylor.

 

Second, the only argument for Taylor is that he runs up the score big...really? Not the fact that he is 70-1 in his 2 year NCAA career, with his only career loss coming in the finals as a freshman? Or the fact that he had one of the most dominant seasons EVER last year? (regardless of how weak the weight was, this is still impressive) These statements you make are just silly.

 

Finally, did you really just lump in Taylor with guys who can beat 98% of guys and not the top-tier guys? Really? Look at his career thus far, he has beaten everyone possible and gone out of his way to do so. He happened to be at 165 in an Olympic year when Howe was red shirting...not his fault. He will face "top 2% guys" before he is done in college, and he will beat them, because he is among them weather you believe it or not. Remember when he dismantled Fittery, who was unstoppable that year? (This is usually where people say, he was never even a finalist blah blah...but if you remember, Everyone thought he was a machine that year, and most certainly top tier.)

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Finally, did you really just lump in Taylor with guys who can beat 98% of guys and not the top-tier guys? Really?

 

What's funny is, despite the fact that it's being used to make some borderline ridiculous claims about Taylor, the 98 percent thing might be statistically pretty relevant. If Taylor is 70-1, that's a winning percentage of 98.6 percent. So the claim that Taylor can "only" beat 98 percent of his opponents but falls to the top 2 percent is almost accurate, although it's a meaningless statistic because only completely undefeated wrestlers can claim better.

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Finally, did you really just lump in Taylor with guys who can beat 98% of guys and not the top-tier guys? Really?

 

What's funny is, despite the fact that it's being used to make some borderline ridiculous claims about Taylor, the 98 percent thing might be statistically pretty relevant. If Taylor is 70-1, that's a winning percentage of 98.6 percent. So the claim that Taylor can "only" beat 98 percent of his opponents but falls to the top 2 percent is almost accurate, although it's a meaningless statistic because only completely undefeated wrestlers can claim better.

 

Hahaha. Very astute, sir.

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dsnc-You are easily in my top 3 posters sir!

 

Tigs-I think you just showed the text book definition of "in one ear and out the other". You didn't (and you don't ever) listen to what I'm saying. You just get defiant and defensive of the PSU train. I don't cheer for Cornell and I don't cheer for Penn St. At least a hundred times I've said I like both schools, but I don't cheer for against either. What happened was an old fashioned booty stomping and you simply can't handle it. It's very sad. If you were asking my opinion, nicely, yes, I would take Dake straight up next year in folkstyle something like 4-3, 5-3, 3-1, something along those lines. I could be right, I could be wrong, just an opinion. It would be my saddest day on this message board if I had to cease arguing with you, as it is quite enjoyable, but you're getting very close. Please don't go over the edge to Mopar land, I would miss you.

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I'm still trying to figure out Jersey's angle here. It's clear why Gonzo (Bitter Iowa Fan/overall nasty person) and Scribe (Bitter Cornell/Dake fan) have an agenda but you have to wonder what is it driving Jersey. Did DT tech fall him in 30 seconds in jr. high?; did DT steal his girlfriend?; is it really Gonzo? Oh well, we may never know. Nice thing is all this off-season nonsense is coming to an end and Jersey, Gonzo and Scribe get to watch another year of David Taylor taking apart the competition. Hey guys, I wonder if he'll win the Hodge by more points this year?

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I am not a nasty person!!! I just don't like it when posters refuse to look at matches and athletes without bias. Being a die hard fan is awesome, being in denial about the outcome of a match is ridiculous. I don't get the two accounts thing, JB can confirm I've always been Gonzo on this message board and I've been on here longer than you, going back to the old board, friend, so I see no reason to address that further. I don't mind watching Taylor take apart the competition, I just wish he'd get to wrestle some top competition. This year is his chance to do so and I can't wait to see it! No, I don't think he repeats as Hodge winner. Two reasons, in my opinion he won't, are that 1.) Ed Ruth is better and equally as dominant and 2.)Kyle Dake is likely going to win his 4th title. I see plenty of scenarios where Taylor wins it too though.

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Jersey-David Taylor is about 12 years my junior, so if you wrestled him, albeit in a freestyle match (and we all know those don't count), then you can't be me. Darn it, I think Tigsy thinks he was on to something.:lol:

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I'm still trying to figure out Jersey's angle here. Did DT tech fall him in 30 seconds in jr. high?;?

That's exactly right. But it was freestyle, so I guess we still don't know who the better wrestler is.

 

Just keep up the "Dake is far and away a better wrestler than Taylor" talk JJ...it will keep sky-rocketing your credibility!! :roll:

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PA-fan-Just curious. Take away the far and away part. Why would you argue Taylor is better than Dake? This is an Iowa fan asking you the question, I have no personal stake in Kyle Dake at all. I just think the evidence overwhelmingly shows he's the better wrestler right now. We have head to head evidence and resume evidence that both show Dake is better. Tell me why I should believe Taylor is better.

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