Brooks (4x w 1 loss) or Carl (4x w 1 loss)

[unbiased 516]

Well, I hate to break it to you but Gable lost.

[MSU158 1,980]

54 minutes ago, Katie said:

I totally disagree.  Brooks has future world medalist written all over him.  And as for 184 being weak, how often do you have a returning Olympic bronze medalist in your weight, and a field with people who are in their fifth varsity seasons (not counting RS years)?  It sounds to me a little like you’re just hating.

184 had NO returning AA's from 2019 in the 2020 field going into NCAA's, before it was cancelled.  In 2021, Venz and Geer were the only returning AA's at the weight and Venz did his in 2018 and Geer took 6th in 2019(he was wrestling 197 in 2020).  So, going into the past 2 weeks is was INARGUABLY the thinnest weight.

However, with that said, I DO agree that 184 is much tougher this year with Amine added to the weight and Hidlay and Keckeisen showing they are both legit.  If Brooks can stay undefeated and show he has distanced himself more from at least Hidlay and Keckeisen, he could start to have an argument for building his resume.  

Zero of this is written with ANY kind of hate.  Brooks will to win over Amine, even though it was very close, was overly impressive. The way he dug deep and somehow turned almost certainly getting taken down into his own takedown made me a believer.   I think his style is more Iowaesque than many PSU fans want to admit(he hand fights, controls ties and constantly moves forward in the ties as well as ANYONE in DI).  Against the best guys, I think his style will result in scores that look close on the scoreboard, but I am not sure he will take a loss at anytime to any of them, except maybe Amine...

[1032004 1,414]

Brooks was a true freshman in 2020 right?  If so, I guess it’s not the worst comparison to Cael.  But even if he wins out he’ll probably only have about half as many matches as Cael did, so it’s still Cael.

[Crotalus 592]

30 minutes ago, unbiased said:

Well, I hate to break it to you but Gable lost.

Wow. This is just a dumb retort. I have no interest in continuing unless you can put together a cogent argument.

[unbiased 516]

8 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Wow. This is just a dumb retort. I have no interest in continuing unless you can put together a cogent argument.

If you are telling people that Gable is a two time undefeated champ and they don't know any better, then they are going to think he never lost in college. 

[Antitroll2828 987]

49 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

184 had NO returning AA's from 2019 in the 2020 field going into NCAA's, before it was cancelled.  In 2021, Venz and Geer were the only returning AA's at the weight and Venz did his in 2018 and Geer took 6th in 2019(he was wrestling 197 in 2020).  So, going into the past 2 weeks is was INARGUABLY the thinnest weight.

125 was definitely the weakest weight class, Spencer Lee was the only returning AA and half the placers from last year are ranked outside the top 8 right now and might not AA this year 

[Crotalus 592]

25 minutes ago, unbiased said:

If you are telling people that Gable is a two time undefeated champ and they don't know any better, then they are going to think he never lost in college. 

That's a better argument. But I still disagree, and context matters. Saying Brooks was an undefeated national champion last season is a true statement. Saying he could do that 4 times is a true statement. If I told someone that didn't know any better that Gable was a two time undefeated national champ, I would probably also be providing context, like he lost in the finals his senior year and that he wasn't allowed to wrestle varsity as a freshman, which are the reasons why he wasn't a 4 time national champ. If I had to do the same while talking about Brooks, I'd have to go into explaining the impact of COVID on NCAA wrestling and the somewhat ridiculous free year that gives some kids the opportunity to wrestle 5 collegiate seasons, while the seniors that lost their year in 2020 were not allow the opportunity to complete their 4th. Then my wife would tell me to shut up because I'm over explaining again and that the person just asked me to pass the butter.

[Katie 1,076]

2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

184 had NO returning AA's from 2019 in the 2020 field going into NCAA's, before it was cancelled.  In 2021, Venz and Geer were the only returning AA's at the weight and Venz did his in 2018 and Geer took 6th in 2019(he was wrestling 197 in 2020).  So, going into the past 2 weeks is was INARGUABLY the thinnest weight.

However, with that said, I DO agree that 184 is much tougher this year with Amine added to the weight and Hidlay and Keckeisen showing they are both legit.  If Brooks can stay undefeated and show he has distanced himself more from at least Hidlay and Keckeisen, he could start to have an argument for building his resume.  

Zero of this is written with ANY kind of hate.  Brooks will to win over Amine, even though it was very close, was overly impressive. The way he dug deep and somehow turned almost certainly getting taken down into his own takedown made me a believer.   I think his style is more Iowaesque than many PSU fans want to admit(he hand fights, controls ties and constantly moves forward in the ties as well as ANYONE in DI).  Against the best guys, I think his style will result in scores that look close on the scoreboard, but I am not sure he will take a loss at anytime to any of them, except maybe Amine...

Based on the NWCA first team All American list — and without looking too hard — returning 2020 All Americans at 184 last year included Hidlay, Deprez, Bolen, and Venz.  Then there was Geer, who you mentioned. Counting Brooks as well that’s six returning AAs last year (and maybe I’m missing one or two more). So I don’t think 184 was a weak weight.  

Edited January 26 by Katie

[MSU158 1,980]

5 minutes ago, Katie said:

Based on the NWCA first team All American list — and without looking too hard — returning 2020 All Americans at 184 last year included Hidlay, Deprez, Bolen, and Venz.  Then there was Geer, who you mentioned. Counting Books that’s six returning AAs (and maybe I’m missing one or two more). So I don’t think it was a weak weight.  

Sorry, but there wasn't an NCAA Tournament in 2020 and you have to know exactly what I was talking about...

[nhs67 1,979]

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

[portajohn 437]

1 minute ago, nhs67 said:

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

Who did he lose to during his greyshirt?

[lu_alum 920]

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

Not really. Carl was working out daily in his D1 room. Brooks wasn’t enrolled in school - bouts w him did not count on the season record forms for collegiate athletes that year.


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[lu_alum 920]

Who did he lose to during his greyshirt?

He lost at the 2018 Midlands

 

Aaron Brooks, who has signed with Penn State, came in with a No. 12 seed. He won his first two bouts, including a 12-8 win over No. 5 seed Ben Harvey of Army West Point. In the quarterfinals, he was edged by No. 4 seed Ryan Christensen of Wisconsin. Brooks, a native of Maryland, was a 2017 Cadet World champion and 2018 Junior World silver medalist, will compete in Saturday’s consolation rounds.

 

 

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[portajohn 437]

3 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

He lost at the 2018 Midlands

 

 

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I remember the loss.  Forgot it was a greyshirt and not a redshirt .  My apologies

[Crotalus 592]

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

If he were to win 3 more NCAA titles without losing, he would be a 4xer with zero losses during those four years.

[lu_alum 920]

If he were to win 3 more NCAA titles without losing, he would be a 4xer with zero losses during those four years.

Just like Carl.


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[Crotalus 592]

Just like Carl.


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Like I was saying, Brooks would be a 4x undefeated national champ and 5x All-American. Cael didn't even try to wrestle attached for 5 years, which would automatically drop him below Brooks.

[nhs67 1,979]

6 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

10 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

Just like Carl.


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Like I was saying, Brooks would be a 4x undefeated national champ and 5x All-American. Cael didn't even try to wrestle attached for 5 years, which would automatically drop him below Brooks.

What?  You trying to mess with me?

Didn't even try to wrestle attached?

15 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

25 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

If he were to win 3 more NCAA titles without losing, he would be a 4xer with zero losses during those four years.

Okay.  8 years after graduating and 8 years in the room later... He goes undefeated his final four.

You are arguing that is as good as Cael's 5 years?

[portajohn 437]

5 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

8 years after graduating and 8 years in the room later.

8 years?

[Katie 1,076]

2 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Sorry, but there wasn't an NCAA Tournament in 2020 and you have to know exactly what I was talking about...

The 2021 field at 184 was not weak.  And that’s the year Brooks won.

Edited January 26 by Katie

[Crotalus 592]

Okay.  8 years after graduating and 8 years in the room later... He goes undefeated his final four.
You are arguing that is as good as Cael's 5 years?

Yes, I thought I laid the sarcasm on pretty heavy with the "didn't even try" joke.

[JerryCallo 94]

Correct me if I am wrong but can't Starocci also finish as a 5X NCAA Champ theoretically with only 2 losses no? That puts him in pretty rarified air - if not on the same pedestal as Cael.  

[unbiased 516]

2 hours ago, Crotalus said:

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

If he were to win 3 more NCAA titles without losing, he would be a 4xer with zero losses during those four years.

Context, well done my friend. 

[Antitroll2828 987]

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

While he may be a 4xer with one loss during those four years, he also lost during his Greyshirt year, which I also count.  That makes two, if you are counting Cael's redshirt loss 

He didn’t train at Penn state his grey shirt year  he was at the OTC and I don’t think it was a true grey shirt bc it was  his senior year of high school 

[Plasmodium 2,224]

In terms of peak  ability, Kyle Snyder is the  NCAA GOAT, hands down.

Edited January 27 by Plasmodium