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NJDan

Stall calls, y'all

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Not for the first time, there are endless debates about who was and was not stalling who should have been called for stalling, but was not. 

To fix this, the NCAA really should try to craft objective factors defining stalling. Calling stalling for dropping to the leg for 5 seconds is a start. But there can be others. 

A few ideas (I am sure there are others):

--staying in the same collar tie for 10 seconds

--not shooting for 30 seconds

--holding a leg in neutral without attempting to finish for 15 seconds.

--call both wrestlers when the first period ends 0-0 (or automatically call one or the other).

The time periods are fairly arbitrary and I wouldn't want the refs to have to count every time-- they could estimate.

 

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Is clubbing or slapping someone else then diving at an ankle with no hope of actually finishing but a high chance of burning clock “offense”?

Asking for a friend.


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2 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Not for the first time, there are endless debates about who was and was not stalling who should have been called for stalling, but was not. 

To fix this, the NCAA really should try to craft objective factors defining stalling. Calling stalling for dropping to the leg for 5 seconds is a start. But there can be others. 

A few ideas (I am sure there are others):

--staying in the same collar tie for 10 seconds

--not shooting for 30 seconds

--holding a leg in neutral without attempting to finish for 15 seconds.

--call both wrestlers when the first period ends 0-0 (or automatically call one or the other).

The time periods are fairly arbitrary and I wouldn't want the refs to have to count every time-- they could estimate.

 

I much prefer passivity and step outs. Riding time needs to be tweaked, too.

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1 minute ago, Le duke said:

Is clubbing or slapping someone else then diving at an ankle with no hope of actually finishing but a high chance of burning clock “offense”?

Asking for a friend.
 

Would that be similar to wrestling with an arm behind your back and having one "offensive" move in seven minutes?

We must have the same friend...

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10 minutes ago, Katie said:

I much prefer passivity and step outs. Riding time needs to be tweaked, too.

Yeah, passivity isn't subjective because they just alternate who they call it on...

 But the possibility of a stepout rule in folkstyle is growing on me...

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Yeah, passivity isn't subjective because they just alternate who they call it on...

 But the possibility of a stepout rule in folkstyle is growing on me...

Passivity is about command of the mat rather than volume of offense. It’s still subjective, but (1) it’s easier call, and (2) you only need to make the call if neither guys scores.  So if someone gets hit with passivity, it was only possible in the first place because he didn’t score (either before being put on the clock or after).

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4 minutes ago, Katie said:

Passivity is about command of the mat rather than volume of offense. It’s still subjective, but (1) it’s easier call, and (2) you only need to make the call if neither guys scores.  So if someone gets hit with passivity, it was only possible in the first place because he didn’t score (either before being put on the clock or after).

In theory it seems better.  But every time I watch FS they usually just alternate who they call it on.

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Would that be similar to wrestling with an arm behind your back and having one "offensive" move in seven minutes?
We must have the same friend...

Taking a real shot and scoring is rewarded.

Planting your face in the mat over and over again? I’m not so sure that should be rewarded.


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3 minutes ago, Le duke said:


Taking a real shot and scoring is rewarded.

Planting your face in the mat over and over again? I’m not so sure that should be rewarded.


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I’m reminded of the guy I wrestled with in HS. Anytime he had a lead with a minute left in the match he would an over hook, squeeze the crap out of the elbow, dive in on a shot and sit there waiting for the ref to call stalemate. Never tried to score but never gave up stalling. 

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2 minutes ago, ppitts71 said:

I’m reminded of the guy I wrestled with in HS. Anytime he had a lead with a minute left in the match he would an over hook, squeeze the crap out of the elbow, dive in on a shot and sit there waiting for the ref to call stalemate. Never tried to score but never gave up stalling. 

So he avoided stalling by mildly attacking instead of not attacking?  Makes sense.

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i really dislike stepout points -  maybe more palatable if they are only turned on after a wrestler has an actual TD and his opponent has been called for stalling. 

Or maybe when real TDs are awarded 3 points.    Or maybe only in the OT period.

But generally blah.

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58 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

Would that be similar to wrestling with an arm behind your back and having one "offensive" move in seven minutes?

We must have the same friend...

I'm out of bullets for today.  If I weren't, I'd give you a trophy for that!

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

i really dislike stepout points -  maybe more palatable if they are only turned on after a wrestler has an actual TD and his opponent has been called for stalling. 

Or maybe when real TDs are awarded 3 points.    Or maybe only in the OT period.

But generally blah.

Was there a rule change that I missed since last night?

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5 hours ago, NJDan said:

Not for the first time, there are endless debates about who was and was not stalling who should have been called for stalling, but was not. 

To fix this, the NCAA really should try to craft objective factors defining stalling. Calling stalling for dropping to the leg for 5 seconds is a start. But there can be others. 

A few ideas (I am sure there are others):

--staying in the same collar tie for 10 seconds

--not shooting for 30 seconds

--holding a leg in neutral without attempting to finish for 15 seconds.

--call both wrestlers when the first period ends 0-0 (or automatically call one or the other).

The time periods are fairly arbitrary and I wouldn't want the refs to have to count every time-- they could estimate.

 

Are you saying we shouldn’t worry about position anymore and just go balls to the wall or it’s stalling?

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The biggest reason freestyle is not more popular to watch here is tradition. There are aspects of folkstyle I like more, namely some of the scrambles and having more control. But objectively speaking freestyle is a much better product. Stalling is a huge issue in folkstyle.

Top and bottom ride outs are painfully boring to watch. We reward riding even if there is no attempt to score. At least in high school they call the top guy for stalling if he is riding parallel and/or not looking for a turn. In college they call the bottom guy.

I believe that the first 5 matches of psu/Iowa did not have a score in the first period. That’s crazy. That’s impossible in freestyle with the shot clock. And step outs certainly help that cause too. Both would be good rule changes for folkstyle. I don’t want to see folkstyle go away but we could add certain aspects of freestyle to make it more similar and more exciting.


If I need to know anything about wrestling or sports, I ask@ShakaAloha because he knows more than me.

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30 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I believe that the first 5 matches of psu/Iowa did not have a score in the first period. That’s crazy. That’s impossible in freestyle with the shot clock. And step outs certainly help that cause too. Both would be good rule changes for folkstyle. I don’t want to see folkstyle go away but we could add certain aspects of freestyle to make it more similar and more exciting.
 

The step out rule is the obvious solution.  Is it possible to count the number of times a score has been stopped by the other guy frantically trying to get out, and all we see is the rotating hand of action called by the ref?   It's a proven fact it works in freestyle, and there is every reason to think it will work in folkstyle.  Just don't stop the action, and if the person scores a TD while the other has just been dinged for stepping out, then good.  

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On 1/29/2022 at 4:16 PM, Lurker said:

Are you saying we shouldn’t worry about position anymore and just go balls to the wall or it’s stalling?

Perhaps there's something between "balls to the wall" and "failure to engage".  Something that would prevent a 3-2 snoozefest involving one wrestler who's never afraid to engage.

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On 1/29/2022 at 3:31 PM, Major Kong said:

Just change to FS. More fun for everyone, wrestlers most of all.

I like the point for riding time. Keep it but back to feet if no action after 15-30 seconds?

Riding without actively moving up to turn for a pin is stalling - and should be called.

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My hatred of stalling comes from how subjective it is - moving to a freestyle passivity model doesn't change that.

I would propose getting rid of stalling altogether and adding the push-out rule. To some extent, the guy who earned the lead shouldn't have to continue putting himself at risk to score - he already did that. On the other hand, a push-out rule would prohibit him from completely shutting down or risk getting pushed out repeatedly.

We could try this in some exhibition matches or pilot it in some other unimportant situations to see if it improves the action before rolling it out at the HS or college level.

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36 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

My hatred of stalling comes from how subjective it is - moving to a freestyle passivity model doesn't change that.

I would propose getting rid of stalling altogether and adding the push-out rule. To some extent, the guy who earned the lead shouldn't have to continue putting himself at risk to score - he already did that. On the other hand, a push-out rule would prohibit him from completely shutting down or risk getting pushed out repeatedly.

We could try this in some exhibition matches or pilot it in some other unimportant situations to see if it improves the action before rolling it out at the HS or college level.

We saw it piloted on Friday night in CHA during the 165 match.

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