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BerniePragle

Nebraska @ PSU

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I agree with you that pushing a guy OOB is stalling. The rulebook even says this is so, but Iowa's program has made a killing pushing guys OOB with great regularity and the guy getting pushed OOB always gets the stalling call against him. 

there is a difference between being in control and pushing out... and being neutral and pushing out

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45 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Boom - Roasted!

Even beyond Iowa, there is wild inconsistency in whose stalling "fault" it was when the one guy is advancing and the other backing off as they go OB.  That inconsistency is unfair and bad for the sport.  

I agree, however it’s often not easy to tell if it’s just pushing or not.  That’s why I wouldn’t hate some sort of step out point.

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22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I agree, however it’s often not easy to tell if it’s just pushing or not.  That’s why I wouldn’t hate some sort of step out point.

Might be worth trying.   Maybe after three times going out without anyone grounded there are step out points.

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On 2/6/2022 at 1:36 PM, HurricaneWrestling2 said:

Yes, Sanderson was directly asked if his comment that Berge was working on his weight signaled a move to 157 or just that he was managing his weight at 165.  Coach reportedly replied with a smile saying: 

“Yeah, both. If that makes any sense. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t.”

Couldn't be clearer, eh?

Read more at: https://www.centredaily.com/sports/college/penn-state-university/psu-wrestling/article258013938.html#storylink=cpy

That was the most clever thing that Cael has ever said. Props.

 

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5 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I agree with you that pushing a guy OOB is stalling. The rulebook even says this is so, but Iowa's program has made a killing pushing guys OOB with great regularity and the guy getting pushed OOB always gets the stalling call against him. 

I’m talking about the Beard/Schultz match. All that other stuff is another topic. 

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5 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

If they push guys OOB then they, meaning the Iowa guys, are stalling. And they do push guys OOB all the time and yet the refs call stalling on the other guy. The inconsistency in how stalling is called is bad for the sport, yet the entire Iowa program right down to the statues is all about the stall call. 

Iowa specifics aside, this is so annoying.  Guys desperately try to circle/run inbounds, but the underhook & collar guy has a tight grip and chases until the eventual step out to get his stall warning or point.  It is total BS!

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

Iowa specifics aside, this is so annoying.  Guys desperately try to circle/run inbounds, but the underhook & collar guy has a tight grip and chases until the eventual step out to get his stall warning or point.  It is total BS!

Agreed!  So BS!

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48 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Iowa specifics aside, this is so annoying.  Guys desperately try to circle/run inbounds, but the underhook & collar guy has a tight grip and chases until the eventual step out to get his stall warning or point.  It is total BS!

Why is there only 1 underhook and collar guy in this scenario?  His opponent has just as much opportunity to have an underhook and collar as well.  I hate to sound as uncompromising as  Pat Milkovich when he talks about stalling, but, if you are a DI wrestler, you should be able to move against someone in that situation.  Snap and circle away from the underhook is probably the easiest thing to do, without initiating offense, but still avoiding going straight backwards.

Most of these guys have been wrestling for 10+ years before they even got into college.  Positioning is the one fundamental thing that gets worked on for ALL that time.  I just have a hard time seeing guys back pedal all over the mat and being upset with the other guy for making it happen.  If you can't hold center at the DI level, I just don't feel bad for you and I don't mind the aggressor benefiting from it...

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

Why is there only 1 underhook and collar guy in this scenario?  His opponent has just as much opportunity to have an underhook and collar as well.  I hate to sound as uncompromising as  Pat Milkovich when he talks about stalling, but, if you are a DI wrestler, you should be able to move against someone in that situation.  Snap and circle away from the underhook is probably the easiest thing to do, without initiating offense, but still avoiding going straight backwards.

Most of these guys have been wrestling for 10+ years before they even got into college.  Positioning is the one fundamental thing that gets worked on for ALL that time.  I just have a hard time seeing guys back pedal all over the mat and being upset with the other guy for making it happen.  If you can't hold center at the DI level, I just don't feel bad for you and I don't mind the aggressor benefiting from it...

I totally hear what you are saying MSU, but there are different ways to wrestle and thus, different types of wrestlers.  Just because you are a D1 wrestler doesn't mean your style and skill set is to be good at sumo.  Some people just aren't good at stopping and getting out of being pushed off the mat.  Again, I know there is a ton of nuance here and there has to be a pride/toughness/etc. thing, but it isn't as simple is, "well, just stop someone from doing it".  With that being said, I am as equally annoyed with a guy that just pushes people around and off the mat as I am with the guy that in fact does back peddle and plays the edge.

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Just now, dman115 said:

I totally hear what you are saying MSU, but there are different ways to wrestle and thus, different types of wrestlers.  Just because you are a D1 wrestler doesn't mean your style and skill set is to be good at sumo.  Some people just aren't good at stopping and getting out of being pushed off the mat.  Again, I know there is a ton of nuance here and there has to be a pride/toughness/etc. thing, but it isn't as simple is, "well, just stop someone from doing it".  With that being said, I am as equally annoyed with a guy that just pushes people around and off the mat as I am with the guy that in fact does back peddle and plays the edge.

But, MOST guys truly aren't just pushing to push.  Except, admittedly some that do the push right at the edge, because you are already there.  I admit, even in my time I was guilty of it, because I would get pissed that they kept going to the edge over and over again.

With the above said, most really are trying to set up their offense.  But, that is mainly based on how the other guy pushes back against them.  I get that many may not have a style that is great at "push-pull" but, they still should find a way to hold center. 

Iowa takes a lot of heat for this, but if you watch, when their opponents actually fight back against the forward pressure Iowa's attack rate goes up considerably.  This is because Iowa's style, almost across the board, is very collar tie dependent.  As such, they have been scouted rather well and many opponents don't fully engage in the ties.  So, you end up seeing a bunch of situations that look just like pushing, but that movement really has as much to do with what the guy backing up is doing as the guy supposedly just pushing.

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57 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Why is there only 1 underhook and collar guy in this scenario?  His opponent has just as much opportunity to have an underhook and collar as well.  I hate to sound as uncompromising as  Pat Milkovich when he talks about stalling, but, if you are a DI wrestler, you should be able to move against someone in that situation.  Snap and circle away from the underhook is probably the easiest thing to do, without initiating offense, but still avoiding going straight backwards.

Most of these guys have been wrestling for 10+ years before they even got into college.  Positioning is the one fundamental thing that gets worked on for ALL that time.  I just have a hard time seeing guys back pedal all over the mat and being upset with the other guy for making it happen.  If you can't hold center at the DI level, I just don't feel bad for you and I don't mind the aggressor benefiting from it...

Your defense here is misplaced.  Legitimate wrestling happens all over the mat but it invariably occurs near the edge multiple times during the course of a match.  When it does,  legitimate wrestling stops.

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17 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Your defense here is misplaced.  Legitimate wrestling happens all over the mat but it invariably occurs near the edge multiple times during the course of a match.  When it does,  legitimate wrestling stops.

Not often true.  Again, many wrestlers offense hinges upon forward motion from the ties.  It isn't their fault that action ends up on the edge of the mat and they still go to that forward motion off the tie.  Now, if you read  I DO agree that the straight up push at the edge of the mat is wrong, but forward motion off the edge is NOT wrong just because the other guy has his back near the edge of the circle.

Edited by MSU158

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

Not often true.  Again, many wrestlers offense hinges upon forward motion from the ties.  It isn't their fault that action ends up on the mat and they still go to that forward motion off the tie.  Now, if you read  DO agree that they straight up push at the edge of the mat is wrong, but forward motion off the is NOT wrong just because the other guy has his back near the edge of the circle.

The nature of the wrestling changes very often at the edge. The change is that one wrestler is trying to drive the other out and the other is desperately trying to circle in or move laterally to avoid being driven out.  There is no offense involved.

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6 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The nature of the wrestling changes very often at the edge. The change is that one wrestler is trying to drive the other out and the other is desperately trying to circle in or move laterally to avoid being driven out.  There is no offense involved.

Because you are only seeing it in black and white.  Again, if the guy pushing forward is actively in the collar tie, EXACTLY like he does in the center of the mat, neither the nature nor the intent changed.  Again, it isn't his fault that the other wrestler let himself get to the edge of the mat with his back facing it.  He should NOT have to change his style because of the location.  The onus should be on the wrestler facing the center to actually get back to the center.

Now, as I have already said above, if the intent is SOLELY to push him out, that is wrong and can warrant a stalling call.  But, I truly believe that intent is much less than what you believe.  I strongly believe that you would see many more attacks if the other wrestle was actively pushing back or doing everything possible to stay on the mat.

Edited to add:  I think our big difference on this subject probably hinges upon our definitions of "desperately trying to circle in".  Because, desperation, to me at least, is a hell of a lot more effort than most show in that position before they inevitably end up out of bounds.

Edited by MSU158

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

MSU defending the Iowa way. Never saw that coming.

The Iowa way?  Seriously? I am literally defending every single wrestler that is heavy on the head and constantly tries to move forward. By the way, that is actually Aaron Brooks whenever he is a wrestling a top opponent…

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The nature of the wrestling changes very often at the edge. The change is that one wrestler is trying to drive the other out and the other is desperately trying to circle in or move laterally to avoid being driven out.  There is no offense involved.
The fact that they can fight to stay in on the edge should tell you that the fact they backed up to the edge to begin with was not some unavoidable circumstance. They could have fought to stay in the center.

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The fact that they can fight to stay in on the edge should tell you that the fact they backed up to the edge to begin with was not some unavoidable circumstance. They could have fought to stay in the center.

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So, Trent Hidlay gets stalled out of NCAA final?


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So, Trent Hidlay gets stalled out of NCAA final?


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I think you will find if you look at my posts from the tournament last year that I would not be opposed to that outcome.

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8 hours ago, VakAttack said:

The fact that they can fight to stay in on the edge should tell you that the fact they backed up to the edge to begin with was not some unavoidable circumstance. They could have fought to stay in the center.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

Not a serious post.

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7 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I think you will find if you look at my posts from the tournament last year that I would not be opposed to that outcome.

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I would think all Iowa fans would not be opposed to that outcome as it would support the way they push wrestle.

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19 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Iowa specifics aside, this is so annoying.  Guys desperately try to circle/run inbounds, but the underhook & collar guy has a tight grip and chases until the eventual step out to get his stall warning or point.  It is total BS!

i'm thinking that this might have actually been stalling at one point... not allowing the guy to circle in...

it's been awhile... 

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18 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Why is there only 1 underhook and collar guy in this scenario?  His opponent has just as much opportunity to have an underhook and collar as well.  I hate to sound as uncompromising as  Pat Milkovich when he talks about stalling, but, if you are a DI wrestler, you should be able to move against someone in that situation.  Snap and circle away from the underhook is probably the easiest thing to do, without initiating offense, but still avoiding going straight backwards.

Most of these guys have been wrestling for 10+ years before they even got into college.  Positioning is the one fundamental thing that gets worked on for ALL that time.  I just have a hard time seeing guys back pedal all over the mat and being upset with the other guy for making it happen.  If you can't hold center at the DI level, I just don't feel bad for you and I don't mind the aggressor benefiting from it...

remember, the other guy has been perfecting the skill to keep him out just as long... 

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