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Jimmy Cinnabon

Do we need a "cooldown" between stalling points?

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The Schultz-Beard match saw Michael Beard score the only two takedowns of the match but lose as Schultz scored 3 escapes and 3 stall points.  Matt Sorochinsky at one point awarded Schultz two stall points within 5 seconds.  Beard scored a TD, Schultz stood while Beard still had his leg up in the air and ended up walking out of bounds still holding Schultz's leg aloft (aka the AJ Ferrari special).  Sorochinsky awarded 1 stall point while Beard held the leg up and another seconds later as they went out of bounds.  If this was called this way, wrestlers like AJ Ferrari would be giving up at least 2 stall points a match, maybe more.

Should there be a "cooldown" where you can't award consecutive stalling points unless at least 30 seconds has passed?  

To be fair, I think Sorochinsky awarded the stall points correctly per the letter of the law but something seems wrong with the way the rules are set up.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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One was a stalling because he picked up the leg and did nothing with it.

The second a push out stall, because he just walked him out instead of staying on the mat.

Two different things, thus no delay.

 

Edited by HoundedHawk

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One was a stalling because he picked up the leg and did nothing with it.
The second a push out stall, because he just walked him out instead of staying on the mat.
Two different things, thus no delay.
 

Agree. Beard deserved both calls.


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3 hours ago, Paul158 said:

Not very smart wrestling by Beard. Held the  leg up for 25 seconds. Gets hit with a stall call. Then instead of making a wrestling move and going out of bounds. He just pushs Shultz straight out. Not the smartest thing to do. . 

You can watch the full match here.  He had the leg up for about 11 seconds before he was hit with a stall call.  Not that it wasn't a long time, but it wasn't 25 seconds as you stated.

At 0:35 seconds left Schultz gets awarded a stall point and 3 seconds later at 0:32 left he gets another stall point.

 

 

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Not very smart wrestling by Beard. Held the  leg up for 25 seconds. Gets hit with a stall call. Then instead of making a wrestling move and going out of bounds. He just pushs Shultz straight out. Not the smartest thing to do. . 
Agreed. Honestly, it's pretty great reffing. Both stall calls in the second period were completely justified as Beard didn't lift his head off the mat for 2 mins. The third call is a bit more subjective and maybe a little quick for some, but Beard was clearly trying to burn time and not return Shultz to the mat, so I have no issue with it. You've got to at least fake an attempt to bring him back down. Then Beard forced the 4th call by walking Shultz out of bounds.

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In situations like this a lot of people say things like "he was taking all the shots; how can he get called for stalling?"  What they forget or don't realize is that the out of bounds stall calls are not based in any way on who the aggressor is or time between other stall calls.  Each time the wrestlers go out of bounds in the neutral position, the ref HAS TO make one of three calls: action, backing out, or pushing out.  Basically, if you are "forcing" the action out of bounds then you get called for stalling.

Certainly there is an element of subjectivity to the out of bounds stall calls, but I like that it keeps guys from gaming the edge too much.

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8 hours ago, UsedToBe103 said:

In situations like this a lot of people say things like "he was taking all the shots; how can he get called for stalling?"  What they forget or don't realize is that the out of bounds stall calls are not based in any way on who the aggressor is or time between other stall calls.  Each time the wrestlers go out of bounds in the neutral position, the ref HAS TO make one of three calls: action, backing out, or pushing out.  Basically, if you are "forcing" the action out of bounds then you get called for stalling.

Certainly there is an element of subjectivity to the out of bounds stall calls, but I like that it keeps guys from gaming the edge too much.

Agree with your overall point, but technically Beard wasn’t hit with any neutral OOB stall calls.  In fact he wasn’t hit with stalling at all in neutral.  Because he wasn’t stalling while in neutral, but he was stalling on top and bottom and was rightfully hit 4 times (giving Schultz 4 points, not 3 Jimmy).

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17 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

The Schultz-Beard match saw Michael Beard score the only two takedowns of the match but lose as Schultz scored 3 escapes and 3 stall points.  Matt Sorochinsky at one point awarded Schultz two stall points within 5 seconds.  Beard scored a TD, Schultz stood while Beard still had his leg up in the air and ended up walking out of bounds still holding Schultz's leg aloft (aka the AJ Ferrari special).  Sorochinsky awarded 1 stall point while Beard held the leg up and another seconds later as they went out of bounds.  If this was called this way, wrestlers like AJ Ferrari would be giving up at least 2 stall points a match, maybe more.

Should there be a "cooldown" where you can't award consecutive stalling points unless at least 30 seconds has passed?  

To be fair, I think Sorochinsky awarded the stall points correctly per the letter of the law but something seems wrong with the way the rules are set up.

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4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Agree with your overall point, but technically Beard wasn’t hit with any neutral OOB stall calls.  In fact he wasn’t hit with stalling at all in neutral.  Because he wasn’t stalling while in neutral, but he was stalling on top and bottom and was rightfully hit 4 times (giving Schultz 4 points, not 3 Jimmy).

Thank you for clarifying.  I hadn't watched the match yet, but an earlier post in the thread referred to it as a "push out stall" so I incorrectly assumed it was neutral out of bounds stalling.

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9 minutes ago, UsedToBe103 said:

Thank you for clarifying.  I hadn't watched the match yet, but an earlier post in the thread referred to it as a "push out stall" so I incorrectly assumed it was neutral out of bounds stalling.

"Pushing him out" was basically what he did, but would technically go under "regular stalling."

I'll be curious what the FRL bros think of how this match was called.   They like to complain about how refs don't call "regular stalling" enough (and I agree).  And this match shows how hard it is to be an official, because then when they do call stalling people complain about that too.   

I thought that ref did a great job.

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Watch 8:04 - 8:12.

The ref hits Ferrari for stalling once, but doesn't award another point for the push out.

According to the rules Ferrari should have been hit with a second stall for the push out.

 

I do think Ferrari could probably get hit more for stalling on top when he continually drives guys out of bounds, but he usually makes it look like he's trying to return them to the mat.  Even in this one he at least raised Nino's leg up.  Beard literally just walked off the mat.  This also would've been a shorter time between those 2 calls and when Beard was hit.

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Most wrestlers at the AA level are pretty good at doing enough to look busy - enough to avoid stalling calls in familar positions.  Beard - I guess was so exhausted - he did not even give the appearance of trying to look busy and engaging in "action."   

He had other mental or work rate lapses.  Short time to ride out the period and rather than any semblence of forward pressure he sits to a crab position and loses a key point.  Beard seems very close to the top guys, but the work rate and intensity is not quite there yet.  Do not know if it is mental, conditioning, strength, or just natural, but this appears to be his weakness.    By contrast, Max keeps a high work rate in all positions. 

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14 minutes ago, Elevator said:

Most wrestlers at the AA level are pretty good at doing enough to look busy - enough to avoid stalling calls in familar positions.  Beard - I guess was so exhausted - he did not even give the appearance of trying to look busy and engaging in "action."   

He had other mental or work rate lapses.  Short time to ride out the period and rather than any semblence of forward pressure he sits to a crab position and loses a key point.  Beard seems very close to the top guys, but the work rate and intensity is not quite there yet.  Do not know if it is mental, conditioning, strength, or just natural, but this appears to be his weakness.    By contrast, Max keeps a high work rate in all positions. 

I saw that and was wondering what the hey he was doing.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.

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45 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I do think Ferrari could probably get hit more for stalling on top when he continually drives guys out of bounds, but he usually makes it look like he's trying to return them to the mat.  

This is what caused Iowa fan's to lose their minds during the DSJ vs Dake final. Dake worked that position and ref like the savvy vet he is and milked the clock for all he could. I don't think the outcome would have been different but I would have preferred to see those two wrestle on their feet more instead of... that. 

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On 2/7/2022 at 11:24 AM, 1032004 said:

"Pushing him out" was basically what he did, but would technically go under "regular stalling."

I'll be curious what the FRL bros think of how this match was called.   They like to complain about how refs don't call "regular stalling" enough (and I agree).  And this match shows how hard it is to be an official, because then when they do call stalling people complain about that too.   

I thought that ref did a great job.

Kudos to the flo bros, they seemed to agree with the stall calls in this whole dual.   But did (rightfully) comment that it's not consistent between refs.

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Kudos to the flo bros, they seemed to agree with the stall calls in this whole dual.   But did (rightfully) comment that it's not consistent between refs.

Their anti-PSU bias is kind of hilarious at times.

The stalling call on Nick Lee? When Red is face down, ass up on the mat, for 40 seconds?

When Jim Gibbons, Iowa homer, defends a PSU kid, that’s a bad call.


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29 minutes ago, Le duke said:


Their anti-PSU bias is kind of hilarious at times.

The stalling call on Nick Lee? When Red is face down, ass up on the mat, for 40 seconds?

When Jim Gibbons, Iowa homer, defends a PSU kid, that’s a bad call.


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To confirm, you had no issue with Beard getting hit for stalling on bottom then, correct?

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