Extra Match Shenanigans

[jp157 513]

8 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Cool dude. That’s not what the last chance is this year. Multiple schools competing including high quality redshirts. The original last chance qualifier was a joke and the rules were modified. This thread is about something else.

 

Edit: I meant to respond to @GreatWhiteNorth but same argument applies. This years last chance qualifier is legit. These duals were not.

Don’t worry. He’ll double down.. though.. he might admit he’s wrong just to prove me wrong 

[GreatWhiteNorth 533]

6 minutes ago, jp157 said:

The first post shows it..multiple people explained it. since you’re obtuse and an imbecile. I’ll explain it
 

Coaches did “extra” matches in a dual. Then each had their backups “injury default” one second in. Injury defaults don’t count as a loss for the person injured and give the inner a “match win”. Both coaches agreed to fixing a match result ahead of time.

Now. I don’t know about you. But setting up an easy open or sending your kids to an easy open.. is a little bush league but not crazy.. imitating the black Sox is straight up.. wrong  

Not you again, do you need more sandwich money? You haven't paid me back the $20 you owe me, you cheap bastard.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,501]

9 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 

In related news, the Last Chance Open is tomorrow!

 

From the OP.

 

31 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

The last chance tournament, with multiple teams and executed properly, is perfectly fine.

From the post I quoted and directly addressed the clause "and executed properly".

Not sure why anyone feels a need to police an internet forum.

[jp157 513]

1 minute ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not you again, do you need more sandwich money? You haven't paid me back the $20 you owe me, you cheap bastard.

Head pat. Now now buddy. Telling flat out lies a no no. Normally I’d call it pathetic.
 

But I’m pretty sure you post exactly like someone I know who most definitely did not wrestle in college. Even if you aren’t that person. It’s very clear lying is par for the course for you.

Oh and look. You avoided the actual point to just tell lies.. I’m shocked 

[Jaroslav Hasek 2,050]

the 2019 Last Chance Open at Iowa State, in which there were several zero second injury defaults (I count three), is the only reason you're seeing 1 second injury defaults in extra matches now. If there were no repercussions in the past, why wouldn't other coaches exploit this loop hole? 

the rule change where matches against your own teammates no longer count for post season calculations is all well and good but those zero second injury defaults in 2019 were by athletes from opposing --but cooperating-- teams. 

maybe there was punishment administered for the 2019 fixed matches that I missed, but if not, I don't see why coaches this season should be punished for a tactic that other coaches were able to benefit from in the past. 

going forward though i very much hopefully the NCAA takes steps to address the issue because i find it as discouraging as everyone else. 

[JasonBryant 2,094]

46 minutes ago, jp157 said:

Injury defaults don’t count as a loss for the person injured and give the inner a “match win”.  

Unless I'm missing some context (which is possible with some people bickering like children), this is incorrect. An injury default at :01 DOES count as a loss for the person injured. An injury default is not a medical forfeit, which happens in tournaments. 

[Billyhoyle 2,479]

There's a very simple solution.  Immediately ban both the wrestlers and coaches who engaged in this from the NCAA tournament.  "Following orders" and "it wasn't punished in the past" is not an excuse to engage in match fixing. If somebody else doesn't pay their taxes and gets away with it in 2020, that doesn't mean you are allowed to do so for 2021. This is not a victimless crime-for every NCAA qualification spot given to one conference tournament, a different conference tournament loses out on it.  

Edited February 20 by Billyhoyle

[1032004 1,452]

7 hours ago, wrestlingphish said:

Cool dude. That’s not what the last chance is this year. Multiple schools competing including high quality redshirts. The original last chance qualifier was a joke and the rules were modified. This thread is about something else.

 

Edit: I meant to respond to @GreatWhiteNorth but same argument applies. This years last chance qualifier is legit. These duals were not.

As long as there are no 1 second injury defaults and valid seeding, then yes this year’s Last Chance Open is legit.

[NJDan 1,073]

Why are "extra" matches counted in the records at all? I thought they were exhibition and the point was to get the sub some real competition.

[jp157 513]

9 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Unless I'm missing some context (which is possible with some people bickering like children), this is incorrect. An injury default at :01 DOES count as a loss for the person injured. An injury default is not a medical forfeit, which happens in tournaments. 

Thank you for the clarification 

[klehner 734]

How about these ECM following the American vs. Maryland dual?  See if you can spot the outlier (courtesy of poster on Lehigh forum):

Results vs. Maryland
125 - Max Leete (AU) pinned Zach Spence (MD), 4:09 (AU 6-0)
133 - Jack Maida (AU) dec. King Sandoval (MD), 4-3 (AU 9-0)
141 - Danny Bertoni (MD) tech. fall Ethan Szerencsits (AU), 16-0 (AU 9-5)
149 - Michael North (MD) dec. Patrick Ryan (AU), 9-3 (AU 9-8)
157 - Lucas Cordio (MD) pinned Antonio Segura (AU), 4:18 (MD 14-9)
165 - Gavin Bell (MD) major dec. Cole Painter (AU), 8-0 (MD 18-9)
174 - Tim Fitzpatrick (AU) dec. Dominic Solis (MD), 3-2 (MD 18-12)
184 - #13 Kyle Cochran (MD) tech. fall Colin Shannon (AU), 17-0 (MD 23-12)
197 - #26 Jaron Smith (MD) pinned Mervin Mancia (AU), 1:45 (MD 29-12)
285 - Zach Schrader (MD) dec. Isaac Righter (AU), 3-1 SV (MD 31-12)

Extra Countable Matches
133 - Shamil Kalmatov (AU) dec. Zach Spence (MD), 9-5
149 - Anthony Artalona (Penn) tech. fall Michael Glynos (AU), 19-2
157 - Jack Nies (AU) dec. Conner Decker (MD), 5-1
197 - Carsten Rawls (AU) pinned Kevin Makosy (MD), 2:11

[nom 1,193]

1). Is this match fixing?

2) Is match fixing expressly prohibited?

3) If #2 is YES, then what is the penalty / punishment that should be applied?

4) if a punishment should be applied, who is expected to administer it?  

I’d say that ASU post makes it clear that the answer to #1 is a clear YES.

anyone know about 2, 3 and 4?

 

 

[jp157 513]

Will someone explain to the imbecile that posting on someone’s profile is not a “dm”.

[jp157 513]

2 hours ago, NJDan said:

Why are "extra" matches counted in the records at all? I thought they were exhibition and the point was to get the sub some real competition.

It probably works same way as exhibition matches vs “JV”/“varsity” matches work in high school. Depends on if the coaches agree to count them as such.

 

Though it is annoying when coaches. Do the “we’ll both each take a forfeit at 106 and 113 then do an exhibition”. Bump up and wrestle. Settle the dual meet by matches as much as possible. Ironically a coach I normally don’t get along with has the exact same attitude so we love scheduling each other and don’t have to worry about shenanigans.

Though while I’m very much a “line the hell up and wrestle” type. I fully understand why the coaches are doing it 

[Husker_Du 852]

11 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

 If there were no repercussions in the past, why wouldn't other coaches exploit this loop hole? 

integrity? 

[jp157 513]

2 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

integrity? 

I think almost 2 years of separation from fans has contributed too 

[Husker_Du 852]

not a bad theory, jp. 

[flyingcement 813]

1 hour ago, klehner said:

How about these ECM following the American vs. Maryland dual?  See if you can spot the outlier (courtesy of poster on Lehigh forum):

Results vs. Maryland
125 - Max Leete (AU) pinned Zach Spence (MD), 4:09 (AU 6-0)
133 - Jack Maida (AU) dec. King Sandoval (MD), 4-3 (AU 9-0)
141 - Danny Bertoni (MD) tech. fall Ethan Szerencsits (AU), 16-0 (AU 9-5)
149 - Michael North (MD) dec. Patrick Ryan (AU), 9-3 (AU 9-8)
157 - Lucas Cordio (MD) pinned Antonio Segura (AU), 4:18 (MD 14-9)
165 - Gavin Bell (MD) major dec. Cole Painter (AU), 8-0 (MD 18-9)
174 - Tim Fitzpatrick (AU) dec. Dominic Solis (MD), 3-2 (MD 18-12)
184 - #13 Kyle Cochran (MD) tech. fall Colin Shannon (AU), 17-0 (MD 23-12)
197 - #26 Jaron Smith (MD) pinned Mervin Mancia (AU), 1:45 (MD 29-12)
285 - Zach Schrader (MD) dec. Isaac Righter (AU), 3-1 SV (MD 31-12)

Extra Countable Matches
133 - Shamil Kalmatov (AU) dec. Zach Spence (MD), 9-5
149 - Anthony Artalona (Penn) tech. fall Michael Glynos (AU), 19-2
157 - Jack Nies (AU) dec. Conner Decker (MD), 5-1
197 - Carsten Rawls (AU) pinned Kevin Makosy (MD), 2:11

Why was Anthony Artalona even there? Bizarre.  At least they actually wrestled tho

[klehner 734]

12 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

Why was Anthony Artalona even there? Bizarre.  At least they actually wrestled tho

Penn is there to wrestle American the next day.  Theory is that he'll wrestle twice today (once in the dual, once as an ECM), which will get him to 15 matches and a > .700 win percentage.

[1032004 1,452]

3 hours ago, NJDan said:

Why are "extra" matches counted in the records at all? I thought they were exhibition and the point was to get the sub some real competition.

Not counting them may be the answer.  I think they were mainly added last year due to not as many events for backups, but coaches also used them to get their starters additional matches.  Guess this year it evolved.

However, D3 for example has always counted exhibitions on official records, but I guess D1 didn’t until last year.

[jp157 513]

33 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

not a bad theory, jp. 

I’ve seen not exactly similar but things be effected in wrestling and education because of it this year. 

[denger 363]

3 hours ago, NJDan said:

Why are "extra" matches counted in the records at all? I thought they were exhibition and the point was to get the sub some real competition.

I don't know why they wouldn't count - as long as they're actually contested. I don't think it's much different than early season open tourneys, where it's definitely not everyone's starters, a lot of guys choose not to wrestle their teammates, guys default out if they take a loss or just don't feel like wrestling anymore that day - those tourneys are flawed for many reasons, but they also function as a tuneup. Nobody really cares who wins those, but they do add some value.

 I see your point though, especially if there's an agreement to pad someone's record. I don't have a problem with contesting more matches, even if they're lopsided, because it's wrestling and there's a chance, albeit slim, of an upset. It's also an opportunity for the favored wrestler to build confidence in a new technique, etc. There's value there. 

That's not what these "defaults" are. These are cheaters cheatin' right in front of everyone. These devalue our entire sport, and like Billy says above, it's not victimless - It specifically devalues the records of guys who did put the work in, who did show up to wrestle matches. They should not count on a guy's record, and the coaches should be reprimanded at least. 

[lu_alum 920]

We just had another in this Lehigh vs ASU match.  McGonagle injury defaulted in 1 second to Ramos as an extra

It gave McGonagle 15 bouts for the year, which I believe qualifies him for RPI. His (now) 7-8 record doesn’t meet the 0.700 threshold for Win Pct.

 

If you are going to suggest Pat Santoro has no integrity, you may the first person to do so. Note he was willing to have McGonagle take the loss in the pre-arranged result w Zeke.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[denger 363]

19 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

It gave McGonagle 15 bouts for the year, which I believe qualifies him for RPI. His (now) 7-8 record doesn’t meet the 0.700 threshold for Win Pct.

 

If you are going to suggest Pat Santoro has no integrity, you may the first person to do so. Note he was willing to have McGonagle take the loss in the pre-arranged agreement w Zeke.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Are you suggesting that Santoro cheated with integrity? He and Zeke conspired to fix two matches, no?

I see how it's not the worst quid-pro-quo example of match fixing, but isn't it still cheating, even if you don't win big?

Extra matches
133 – Michael McGee (ASU) injury default Malyke Hines (Lehigh) 0:01
141 – Mykey Ramos (ASU) injury default Connor McGonagle (Lehigh) 0:01

Edited February 20 by denger
included the "match" results

[ionel 2,534]

14 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

This last chance tournament garbage has got to go. It is nothing more than petty cheating.

No place for it in wrestling.

 

 

Yeah ... let's go after the "petty cheating" versus the actual real cheating ...   ;_;

 

I have no idea what I'm talking about