Who wants a pushout rule

[TBar1977 4,598]

On 2/24/2022 at 10:56 AM, GockeS said:

speaking of the pushout... 

a week or so ago,, watched two duals.

in one dual wrestler a pushed wrestler b to the boundary and would not let wrestler b circle back in  wrestler b was called for stalling.

in the other dual the same thing happened but wrestler a was called.

it was my thought that the second ref is right. why has that become a thing of the past 

Precisely why I am against the wholesale use of stall calls. Same action, two opposite calls. Way too much subjectivity and way too much influence of the referee on the outcome vs. having the wrestlers settle it on the mat. Just way, way too subjective. 

I want the better wrestling, not the referees calls, to be the decider.

[Major Kong 89]

12 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

shot clock is as subjective as anything else

Oh, I get you. True, but it does stimulate action, is actually called (unlike stalling) and usually is recriprocal if there is more inaction. Our stalling rule (as not called) is largely a farce. Curious how they always hit a kid with :20 left, just enough time so they don't have to hit him again and award a point.

[GockeS 548]

4 hours ago, Jim L said:

This is a bad take.  Around me, there are lots of schools that now have wrestling teams that did not when I was in HS.  Most of them seem to be wearing the two piece uniforms.

Whether or not you believ the two piece is going help grow the sport, surely you can't believe that it will hurt wrestling. Kids are not going to stop coming out for wrestling because they can't wear a singlet?

 

um, it's not a take. it's a fact. 

we had kids saying they didn't like the singlet. so we got the two piece uniform. none of those kids came out.

and no i didn't say they wouldn't come out if they couldn't wear the singlet.

but we did make the kids who dind't want to wear the two piece wear it. to show how cool we were to the kids who still didn't come out. 

[GockeS 548]

16 hours ago, Major Kong said:

The point is that watching two guys hang on collar ties for two minutes without a stall call gets boring. At least to me. If there are other ways besides a shot clock to remove subjectivity re: stalling let's consider those as well. 

im not sure if you are fan of the shotclock but it is very subjective in the eyes of many

 

[GockeS 548]

16 hours ago, Wrestle81 said:

Push out rule would be awful for folkstyle wrestling...I would diminish kids ability to get a real takedown..or they would take the 1 point pushout rather than finish a TD....

i have said this for years

walking a guy out with his ankle in your armpit has suddenly become wrestling technique

[105LB1986 0]

Wrestling mats must be a minimum of 42' circle.  But I can't find a maximum.  I believe that not all schools have the same size mats.  (If I'm wrong about this.... the rest of my post is irrelevant.... LOL).  

Would schools that "like to push" gravitate to the smaller mats?  While schools that like to have max room go with a mat that is larger?

[Major Kong 89]

38 minutes ago, GockeS said:

im not sure if you are fan of the shotclock but it is very subjective in the eyes of many

 

I think a clock is a poor solution - except when compared with all the others and with the current situation in folkstyle. The clock is subjective, but it is called and serves to provoke action. It also is usually called reciprocally if the action wanes. Again, NCAA stall rules and calls are laughably ineffective. Even restricting the issue to wrestling on the feet, does anyone dispute that freestyle has more action? IMO that's largely because of the clock and pushout.

[GockeS 548]

16 minutes ago, Major Kong said:

I think a clock is a poor solution - except when compared with all the others and with the current situation in folkstyle. The clock is subjective, but it is called and serves to provoke action. It also is usually called reciprocally if the action wanes. Again, NCAA stall rules and calls are laughably ineffective. Even restricting the issue to wrestling on the feet, does anyone dispute that freestyle has more action? IMO that's largely because of the clock and pushout.

iagree the shot clock is called and that it is a poor solution, because  i dont agree that it provokes action. in fact, i say that it causes less action in the person who is not on the clock.

sometimes it is called reciprocally, but not that much more often.

ncaa stall calls are called. and do provoke action sometimes. if not a point is awarded.

i dont disagree that freestyle may have more action... but would there be more turns if there was more time allowed to turn? or more action if a point was given for escape, not just reversal? 

[PUWrestler 24]

Wrestling on the edge doesn't bother me. What bothers me is the way stalling is called on the bottom man when he has no hope of building a base and the guy on top is not attempting a turn.

[AKHUNTER 316]

guy on top not attempting a turn is freaking stalling

[ironmonkey 157]

Maybe If you watch freestyle, you get bent out of shape when wrestlers go out of bounds in folk.  Perhaps If you don't watch freestyle, you don't have the same issue with it in folk.  Conversely, Maybe if you watch primarily folk and see a free match decided by a pushout, you get upset.  Yet maybe if you watch both, you won't have the same issue.  

I can't isolate the variables to be sure but I suspect the rules themselves that we grow used to determine the action that we expect and demand.   I only watch folk so I don't see the issue at all with going out of bounds.  I even see recent improvements in the ways stalling is called around the edges that has encouraged more action and less out of bounds calls.  I also have noticed the difference in the coaching at the youth level regarding out of bounds.  I suppose a pushout is a definitive way to address things but what are we addressing?  I'm not convinced it will increase action.  it will incentivize pushouts though.  Are they really worth half a takedown?  That is my big holdup.  It should be worth a fifth or a quarter but half?  Too much.  

 

  

 

Edited February 26 by ironmonkey

[HoundedHawk 83]

On 2/25/2022 at 9:54 AM, JeanGuy said:

Has it really led to more action? I see matches all the time that someone is fighting for a takedown then realizes they might not get it so they force the other wrestler out of bounds. Same from the defensive wrestler that feels the take down is imminent so they get out of bounds.

I believe so.  There are plenty of TDs in freestyle, and our 2 gold medalists even winning on last second ones.  There was far more action in those matches than, let's say, the NCAAs finals  last year where countless times wrestlers left the mat with no repercussions. 

One thing I do know is this.  I find it repulsive to watch wrestlers go out of bounds to keep from getting scored upon.  If those shenanigans are called "action" then I want no part of it.   It's the opposite type of action that draws people to the sport.   I know.  I used to have 8 guys that would go with me to NCAAs but the biggest issue with those that quit was wrestlers fleeing the mat.  It was pure boredom. 

There is no doubt in my mind that giving a point to the opponent by stepping out, and still allowing the two as it goes out of bounds, will increase more entertaining action.  And fighting ot stay on the mat is action, which absolutely will happen.  Certainly, more than the current moronic action signal given by the refs as they purposefully head out of bounds.     

[HoundedHawk 83]

17 hours ago, ironmonkey said:

I suppose a pushout is a definitive way to address things but what are we addressing?  I'm not convinced it will increase action.  it will incentivize pushouts though.  Are they really worth half a takedown?  That is my big holdup.  It should be worth a fifth or a quarter but half?  Too much.  

It will increase the action to stay in bounds.  And that's a higher quality action than the incessant trips out of bounds to keep from being scored on that stop action.

And I think it's worth a point if your opponent doesn't have enough control to stay on the mat.  Controlling your opponent is worth a point.  

[HoundedHawk 83]

22 hours ago, 105LB1986 said:

Wrestling mats must be a minimum of 42' circle.  But I can't find a maximum.  I believe that not all schools have the same size mats.  (If I'm wrong about this.... the rest of my post is irrelevant.... LOL).  

Would schools that "like to push" gravitate to the smaller mats?  While schools that like to have max room go with a mat that is larger?

Iowa's home mat is larger than Oklahoma State's. 

I think if they implement the step out rule, then all mats everywhere need to be the size of the NCAA finals' mat.  

[ironmonkey 157]

4 hours ago, HoundedHawk said:

It will increase the action to stay in bounds.  And that's a higher quality action than the incessant trips out of bounds to keep from being scored on that stop action.

And I think it's worth a point if your opponent doesn't have enough control to stay on the mat.  Controlling your opponent is worth a point.  

or drive opponents out of bounds

[cjc007 774]

or drive opponents out of bounds

It works great for Sumo

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

[ironmonkey 157]

I love sumo!   However, it doesnt work that great.  Most of their matches end fast with opponents going out of bounds 

 

[ironmonkey 157]

That is actually a great example.  Sumo has a wealth of throws and trips that we rarely see.  

[ChicagoHawk 47]

There is a reason the ncaa tournament out draws the us open or WTTs.   Heck… I bet the Illinois kids state tournament out draws them.    Folkstyle is far more exciting than freestyle.    The drama on the edge is part of that excitement.   

[denger 363]

I'm in the camp that enjoys the cylindrical boundary and extended action. 

I also like the idea of a push-out because I like it in freestyle, but that sport emphasizes athleticism, and Folk emphasizes control. (At least that's how I've learned to describe it in the simplest terms)

Like a few others have described, it'd be complicated to have both the cylinder and the push-out. Perhaps if a takedown was worth 3 it would create enough incentive to maintain the action on the edge, but that further complicates the whole hierarchy. 

I doubt we see it soon. 

Edited February 28 by denger

[GockeS 548]

21 hours ago, ChicagoHawk said:

There is a reason the ncaa tournament out draws the us open or WTTs.   Heck… I bet the Illinois kids state tournament out draws them.    Folkstyle is far more exciting than freestyle.    The drama on the edge is part of that excitement.   

i would agree to an extent...

i think the major fan draw is the school factor... 

[UnOfficialObserver 3]

Y'all can want a push-out, but the reality is your opinions don't matter at all when it comes to rule changes. The coaches decide on this and it gets unanimously voted down each time it is presented. I'm talking 80%+ vote against it. Therefore, this entire thread is irrelevant.

[UnOfficialObserver 3]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:18 PM, 105LB1986 said:

Wrestling mats must be a minimum of 42' circle.  But I can't find a maximum.  I believe that not all schools have the same size mats.  (If I'm wrong about this.... the rest of my post is irrelevant.... LOL).  

Would schools that "like to push" gravitate to the smaller mats?  While schools that like to have max room go with a mat that is larger?

You are wrong about this. Minimum circle diameter is 32 feet and maximum is 42 feet.

[Cptafw164 130]

Change “STALLING” to “passivity” and have the refs call it.  
 

referees have been great at calling stalling in the neutral position.  They probably need to get better at calling stalling on the TOP position.  

[GockeS 548]

On 2/26/2022 at 10:21 AM, HoundedHawk said:

 

One thing I do know is this.  I find it repulsive to watch wrestlers go out of bounds to keep from getting scored upon.  If those shenanigans are called "action" then I want no part of it.   It's the opposite type of action that draws people to the sport.   I know.  I used to have 8 guys that would go with me to NCAAs but the biggest issue with those that quit was wrestlers fleeing the mat.  It was pure boredom. 

 

how do you feel when wrestlers drop down to their knees before going out of bounds to not get scored upon