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Jordan Burroughs on Alex Marinelli

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9 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

No they aren't. Your fans just will not accept valid criticism even when it comes from someone like Jordan Burroughs. 

I literally just said I dont disagree with his criticism. Do you even read what you quote?

Iowa is held to an unrealistic standard. They are one of the most dominant programs in the country, but still get criticized because of their history. Its really not debatable.

Edited by Drake_Mallard

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17 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

But, DeSanto actually DID try to shelf the leg in one of the first sequences.  Guess what happened?  RBY immediately caught his ankle and DeSanto quickly gave up.  The point being, that position is EXACTLY where RBY wants to be.  He is actually waiting for DeSanto to try to improve because that is where he is best at countering.

The ONLY way DeSanto is going to finish that single leg is on his feet.  But, even then, he needs to keep his feet clear, because RBY is also very good at clipping the ankle with his hand and forcing the scramble.  As such, DeSanto is forced to wrestle this way or go straight into RBY's wheel house.

The only way I see taking down RBY is some quick move that puts him on his bottom. DeSanto had that withy his dump series off the tri-tie, but RBY has taken that away.  DeSanto has never really shown much of a propensity for ankle picks or double legs so his only other chance is a hi-crotch.  But, even that would require switching off to the double almost immediately upon impact.

You can blast DeSanto for his tactics all day long, but RBY has truly become a terrible match up for him.  The current strategy is really the best one for DeSanto's skill set.  You hope for the stall call, maybe get lucky and catch RBY off balance and finish the attack fast and clean or, hope the pressure of a stall warning and constant attacks forces RBY to make a mistake due to a sense of urgency.

None of the situations favor DeSanto, simply because RBY has become the better wrestler.  But, you shouldn't be faulting DeSanto for it.  They were smart enough to learn that his wide open style got him seriously exposed the 1st match he lost to RBY and now he has to play chess and hope RBY makes a mistake...

Excellent, incisive analysis!

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One more thing I want to say before this thread degenerates further.

One of the most interesting things about the JB/Marinelli conversation to me, is that Marinelli initiated it by asking JB what he can do to improve. Think about that for a second. Here is a guy who is moments away from accepting his fourth B1G title, who has only a hand full of both days and matches left in his college wrestling career, and he is still looking for ways to improve. That says a lot about the guy. And JB prefaced his discussion by acknowledging exactly that.

I would not expect to see Marinelli transformed in the title match and suddenly become a high volume leg attacker, but I am very interested to see if he is able to take the advice he solicited from one of the all time greats to heart in the heat of battle and fire off a few, well-timed leg attacks. I think it would come as a bit of a surprise to his opponent, who will have studied Marinelli's previous style, and may prove to be the difference.

 

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36 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

But, DeSanto actually DID try to shelf the leg in one of the first sequences.  Guess what happened?  RBY immediately caught his ankle and DeSanto quickly gave up.  The point being, that position is EXACTLY where RBY wants to be.  He is actually waiting for DeSanto to try to improve because that is where he is best at countering.

The ONLY way DeSanto is going to finish that single leg is on his feet.  But, even then, he needs to keep his feet clear, because RBY is also very good at clipping the ankle with his hand and forcing the scramble.  As such, DeSanto is forced to wrestle this way or go straight into RBY's wheel house.

The only way I see taking down RBY is some quick move that puts him on his bottom. DeSanto had that withy his dump series off the tri-tie, but RBY has taken that away.  DeSanto has never really shown much of a propensity for ankle picks or double legs so his only other chance is a hi-crotch.  But, even that would require switching off to the double almost immediately upon impact.

You can blast DeSanto for his tactics all day long, but RBY has truly become a terrible match up for him.  The current strategy is really the best one for DeSanto's skill set.  You hope for the stall call, maybe get lucky and catch RBY off balance and finish the attack fast and clean or, hope the pressure of a stall warning and constant attacks forces RBY to make a mistake due to a sense of urgency.

None of the situations favor DeSanto, simply because RBY has become the better wrestler.  But, you shouldn't be faulting DeSanto for it.  They were smart enough to learn that his wide open style got him seriously exposed the 1st match he lost to RBY and now he has to play chess and hope RBY makes a mistake...

I did not blast his tactics for even a minute, never mind all day long. I simply paraphrased what Jordan Burroughs had to say about his tactics. I know that can come across as passively blasting (hey, it wasn't me that said it...), but I did not mean it to.

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1 hour ago, headache said:

Iowa scored 27 bonus points at last years NCAA tournament. Are those awarded for snapping heads and pushing opponents out of bounds? 

I think the argument is about the, admittedly generalized, Iowa-Style that you still see with Marinelli, Cassioppi, Warner, Young, and Murin. This argument is about what it will take to get over the hump, and it would be argued that those guys haven't yet. 

76% of those bonus points came from Lee, DeSanto, Eierman, and Kemmerer. Guys who have a more open style. One of those guys won a title, two lost in OT as 1 seeds, and the other got third. Saying that those guys have gotten over the hump. 

I like JB's comments, but I also understand the argument "well you're JB, of course it's easy to say to just fire it off. Because you have the athleticism to." We used to have Greg Jones review tape with us and an example of feedback once was "why don't you just blast double here?" Well, we're barely a quarter of the athlete you are and can't just do that like you can. 

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37 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Not true.  Plenty of fans on HR want Marinelli shooting way more and DeSanto finishing.  But, that doesn't mean they want them doing it recklessly.  There are plenty of VERY knowledgeable Iowa fans that want more offense, but ALSO understand not everyone has the lightning speed of Jordan Burroughs to fire off these attacks, nor the wrestling IQ to pick the right spots.

Maybe Marinelli should be firing off more difficult attacks, but this is ALSO what most of his opponents want.  They want him forcing stuff, because that is also THEIR best chance to score on him because it is one of the rare times he gets out of position.  Remember, both of his losses in the quarterfinals to Lewis and Griffith came off countering his attacks.

I know those fans are out there. I am not really referring to them. My comments are re those who always take that extra step where they claim the other wrestler is stalling when clearly it can be seen their guy has employed a strategy designed not to score but rather to induce a call. 

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42 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Why is a guy who shoots a lot and at least creates scrambling positions bad for the sport?  Would it be better if he just hand fought the entire time?  Or, how about this, RBY starts initiating his own offense and starts firing off attacks instead?  Remember, there are 2 guys on the mat!

His plan is to shoot off the whistle, grab an ankle, sit there fishing - and that is the very word JB used, fishing - for a call. 

To employ such strategy is to give up trying to score from neutral by any other means other than being awarded points by the ref.

Edited by TBar1977

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18 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I did not blast his tactics for even a minute, never mind all day long. I simply paraphrased what Jordan Burroughs had to say about his tactics. I know that can come across as passively blasting (hey, it wasn't me that said it...), but I did not mean it to.

Didn't say you did and my response was not to you.  What you posted was accurate and I understand where Burroughs is coming from.  I just think some of the greats think guys should be able to do stuff because they could.  This is why I don't always believe great, super successful athletes are always the best coaches.  What works for them, often doesn't work for others.  

In a vacuum, it would be great if Marinelli fired off more attacks, but he is NOT a great scrambler.  By firing off more attacks, he opens himself up to his biggest weakness...

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@Wrestleknownothing

I'm out of bullets for today, so I can't give you a like.  Excellent post both about Marinelli's willingness to accept advice, and on JB's poise, intelligence, etc.  It is very cool seeing a wrestling legend like JB also setting such a great example off the mat.  As much as he's done for the sport on the mat, he may even do more for the future behind a mic.  His classroom time wasn't wasted.  I'm curious... Anyone know what his major, degree(s) were?

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2 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Didn't say you did and my response was not to you.  What you posted was accurate and I understand where Burroughs is coming from.  I just think some of the greats think guys should be able to do stuff because they could.  This is why I don't always believe great, super successful athletes are always the best coaches.  What works for them, often doesn't work for others.  

In a vacuum, it would be great if Marinelli fired off more attacks, but he is NOT a great scrambler.  By firing off more attacks, he opens himself up to his biggest weakness...

I'm out of reactions or I would have liked.

I understand the issue about greats being poor coaches. My only counterpoint would be that what he said sounds achievable. He advised Marinelli to do the things he sees him drilling (circle round, high C, double leg) and doing against lesser opponents. He advised DeSanto to shelf the leg to finish the shot. To JB's credit he never said what he would do.

I grant that DeSanto, Marinelli, and Burroughs would know much better than I what is and is not possible.

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8 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I'm out of reactions or I would have liked.

I understand the issue about greats being poor coaches. My only counterpoint would be that what he said sounds achievable. He advised Marinelli to do the things he sees him drilling (circle round, high C, double leg) and doing against lesser opponents. He advised DeSanto to shelf the leg to finish the shot. To JB's credit he never said what he would do.

I grant that DeSanto, Marinelli, and Burroughs would know much better than I what is and is not possible.

I liked the advice in regards to Marinelli.  Maybe it will have him look for a slighter opening vs. the perfect one.  I just don't want him firing off difficult shots when his opponents are really good at countering and/or scrambling.  Maybe it finds him a middle ground.

When it comes to DeSanto, I think he was 100% wrong.  The one time DeSanto did shelf the leg, RBY went right to his ankle grab.  If DeSanto would have kept pressing that position he either ends up getting cradled or screaming in pain again.  Simply put, RBY is world class in that position and DeSanto needs to be able to bring that position to his feet clean and fast or do exactly what he has been doing once he gets stopped on his knees with the leg.

Now, I would like to see him try to circle harder to his left, once he gets to the leg.  That may open him up to a chance to get to his feet again or maybe cause RBY to get out of position.  But, again, I do NOT like him shelving the leg.  It brings his head and knee closer together and puts him right into the position RBY is waiting for...

Edited by MSU158

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Does anyone seriously think Marinelli would have beat Mamiti twice by opening up his offense? IMO, if he follows JB's advise he would have no chance to win those matches and he can forget the nationals. Marinelli is playing to his strength against some extremely tough wrestlers. 

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8 minutes ago, headache said:

Does anyone seriously think Marinelli would have beat Mamiti twice by opening up his offense? IMO, if he follows JB's advise he would have no chance to win those matches and he can forget the nationals. Marinelli is playing to his strength against some extremely tough wrestlers. 

I honestly have no problem with anything Marinelli did vs Hamiti. He wrestled smart.

My issue this past wknd was him gesturing to the ref basically asking for a point after he pushed Amine out of the circle. I don't like the way that match went. It was decided via crowd induced stall calls which accrued to him for pushing Amine out. The ref should have allowed that match to go into OT imo. 

Edited by TBar1977

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If I'm DeSanto, I play to my strength: an almost unlimited gas tank. Instead of shooting all the time, focus on wearing RBY down by being heavy on the head in regulation. Save your shots for overtime. He could learn from the Dake v. LeValley EIWA final (2011) on Flo. There was no way LeValley was going to outwrestle Dake in that match unless he wore him down first.

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4 minutes ago, PUWrestler said:

If I'm DeSanto, I play to my strength: an almost unlimited gas tank. Instead of shooting all the time, focus on wearing RBY down by being heavy on the head in regulation. Save your shots for overtime. He could learn from the Dake v. LeValley EIWA final (2011) on Flo. There was no way LeValley was going to outwrestle Dake in that match unless he wore him down first.

This really hasn't worked either.  Eventually he gets caught reaching and RBY hits a slide by. Plus, RBY really hasn't shown he wears down anymore.

Like it or not, I think this is the best strategy he has left.  Maybe they tweak the movement on the leg a bit once he gets there, but I don't think he is every getting to the left arm again and staying on his feet the entire time won't get him there...

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I'd have to go back and look at all of their matches. DeSanto is almost always pushing into RBY, which makes a slide by easier, I would think, than if DeSanto were snapping down on RBY's head and stepping away.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I know those fans are out there. I am not really referring to them. My comments are re those who always take that extra step where they claim the other wrestler is stalling when clearly it can be seen their guy has employed a strategy designed not to score but rather to induce a call. 

you know roman is allowed to try to score more than once a match too right? say what you want about desanto's inability to finish, but he is clearly the aggressor in that match. he's just not as good.

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1 hour ago, TLS62pa said:

I think the argument is about the, admittedly generalized, Iowa-Style that you still see with Marinelli, Cassioppi, Warner, Young, and Murin. This argument is about what it will take to get over the hump, and it would be argued that those guys haven't yet. 

76% of those bonus points came from Lee, DeSanto, Eierman, and Kemmerer. Guys who have a more open style. One of those guys won a title, two lost in OT as 1 seeds, and the other got third. Saying that those guys have gotten over the hump. 

I like JB's comments, but I also understand the argument "well you're JB, of course it's easy to say to just fire it off. Because you have the athleticism to." We used to have Greg Jones review tape with us and an example of feedback once was "why don't you just blast double here?" Well, we're barely a quarter of the athlete you are and can't just do that like you can. 

really not fair to include cassioppi in that list. he's as aggressive on his feet as any heavyweight not named gable.

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Being a part of several different college rooms, as a competitor and a coach, there is something that is kind of going unsaid.  There are different basic mindsets in each room.  These mindsets get reinforced by different mantras, slogans, and general trains of thought that permeate throughout ever wrestler.  When the mindset is be stingy on defense, wear your opponent down, and capitalize on their mistakes, you get a certain kind of wrestler.  If the mindset is push the pace, engage in chain wrestling, and use volume to score points, you get a much different wrestler.  Here is the thing - How a wrestler interprets those things can be wildly different.  Being stingy on defense, wearing your opponent down, and capitalizing on their mistakes looks a whole hell of a lot different between when Jaydin Eirman hears it, and Alex Marinelli hears it.  Every wrestler comes to a point where they have to wager the risk of failing in a situation, and the reward of success.  There is no magic formula to determine where that line is, because its different for every guy in every situation.  I will say this - The way most guys who wrestle for Iowa do it, it makes me fast forward through their matches.  Marinelli being the worst to watch.  I am rooting for him to win though when it counts.  He has done a crapload for his teammates and his school.

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15 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have been somewhat of an Alex Marinelli apologist the last few days (can I get an Amen, @TBar1977?).

I have been thinking about the question of whether he is a tragic hero with a classic fatal flaw or whether he simply has run into a series of unfortunate events that have led to his under performance at NCAAs. I have been in the series of unfortunate events camp. 

But, after listening to Jordan Burroughs speaking on FRL and sharing a conversation he had with Marinelli prior to the B1G awards ceremony, I think I have swung over to the tragic hero / fatal flaw camp. First, what Burroughs said:

“You’re beating guys up in the hand fights, but you’re not following it up, you’re not attacking...Use your hand fight to dominate the ties, control the center, but now free your hands in order to either get to your snap and spin, go around the corner, open it up to your high C, use your double leg, all these shots that you have that I have watched you drill, I’ve watched you hit on lesser opponents. But, when you get into a tight match it’s almost like he scales back, and dials down on his offensive prowess, and he is just only willing to hand fight. And, if there is not a clear opening, then he is not going to shoot.

And I’m like bro, there is never going to be this perfect opening where this guy is so out of position that you’re going to be able to fire and blast him off his feet. Maybe that will come. Probably not against the best guys. These guys are disciplined too. Especially a guy like Cam Amine. He keeps good positioning throughout the match. You’re just going to have to just open him up by taking shots of your own.”

Burroughs also said this appears to be an Iowa problem. Now, I'm not saying I don't respect what you guys tell me here, but this is freakin Jordan freakin Burroughs talking. And let me say something about freakin Jordan freakin Burroughs talking. I could listen to that guy talk wrestling all day. He has such a bright future. I am very impressed with everything about him. And watching him do FRL with his children rotating on his lap just makes me love the guy that much more.

We worry about the future of wrestling with all the MFFs stealing what was supposed to be a show. But, if the future of these shows includes Jordan Burroughs, I think the sport will be just fine.

As for Marinelli, it will be interesting to see if in 11 days he takes Burroughs' advice and wrestle like it is 9 days from now..

What is strange is both Brands Bros shot constantly to even a fault when they competed.

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Leaving aside the fact the blatant hypocrisy about fan bases. especially because I’ve been pretend blocked. Lol.

 

People whining about the “sumo” need to really understand that just whining kinda excuses the other wrestler doing nothing to counter someone pressuring in. Whether it be snaps, slide byes, throws, or ducks. The Azerbaijani and Russian teams literally all started doing overhook slide byes to counter the Iranians..

how about people learn to stay in bounds and make people pay for just pushing.. using one of the myriad techniques that do just that.

Any argument about the pushing applies to the ankle ride..

Im not an Iowa fan btw. 

 

I hope I have not offended anyone so much that they report me. I totes respect those people who report people for things that wouldn’t get written up in elementary 

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3 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

you know roman is allowed to try to score more than once a match too right? say what you want about desanto's inability to finish, but he is clearly the aggressor in that match. he's just not as good.

If you are ankle diving on the whistle and fishing for stall calls, that is not aggressive wrestling. That is just letting time go by while pleading for points while in the process. 

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