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Fletcher

My new rules for stalling - whaddaya think?

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I'd love to get rid of it altogether, but recognize that may not be feasible. Here's what I think could work to improve the current rules and eliminate some of the ref discretion (which is ruining the sport, as the state of Ohio knows).

1. Top guy: 5-second count if you drop down to a leg on top (same rule as now)

2. Top guy: 5-second count if bottom guy stands and you don't mat return (same rule as now)

3. Top guy: 5-second count if you put in both legs and don't either turn him or transition into something else

4. Bottom guy: no stalling called on bottom guy ever. If he's stalling, you can cut him.

5. Neutral: pushout rule from freestyle (hopefully that takes care of most stalling situations).

6. Neutral: no stalling call if someone is wrestling defensively and choosing not to shoot. If they're ahead, they've earned the privilege to not have to put themselves at risk later in the match. If they're actively running away, that could be a stall call, but hopefully the pushout rule would prevent that.

Not perfect, but would remove some of the current arbitrary ref. discretion. Thoughts?

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Bottom man being called for stalling is a giant issue in college wrestling....especially when the top man is riding parallel.  I think the rules committee needs to get on the mat and be reminded how difficult it is to create a base when someone is parallel.    Too often the top guy is on top with a wrist and just breaking the bottom guy down over and over again with zero attempt to turn or score.  The ankle ride is another means to extending the top guy and preventing him from getting up...without any attempt to score.  

So the question comes down to.....Is the top position about scoring points or is holding a man down good enough ?    

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15 minutes ago, Dartsingle said:

So the question comes down to.....Is the top position about scoring points or is holding a man down good enough ?    

Lots of people say folkstyle is about “control” when they compare it to freestyle. Holding a person down flat on the mat without them getting away is a pretty example of controlling someone.

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You should absolutely be allowed to ride w/ both legs in. It's a scoring move because of riding time and it also prevents your opponent from scoring. It's been said before but it's true- if you don't like being ridden get out from bottom. As far as the pushout goes I think it would change the dynamic of neutral wrestling too much, I don't want to see sumo wrestling. If guys are just pushing but not attempting anything else they don't deserve a point. If you want to go upper body and need the guy to push back into you why should he? Not pushing back to avoid an upper body move is the same as sprawling to avoid a leg attack imo. 

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34 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

You should absolutely be allowed to ride w/ both legs in. It's a scoring move because of riding time and it also prevents your opponent from scoring. It's been said before but it's true- if you don't like being ridden get out from bottom. As far as the pushout goes I think it would change the dynamic of neutral wrestling too much, I don't want to see sumo wrestling. If guys are just pushing but not attempting anything else they don't deserve a point. If you want to go upper body and need the guy to push back into you why should he? Not pushing back to avoid an upper body move is the same as sprawling to avoid a leg attack imo. 

The issue with double leg riding is “improving position”.  That is where stalling comes into play.   For most, there is no improvement and real effort to turn. Therefor, it really is a stall ride. Now, there are exceptions like Retherford and Stieber, but you also had both Perrys who flat out stalled with it against all but the worst competition. 
 

I say the above having heavily ridden legs. I like it and it can be a very dominant, draining and demoralizing ride. However, I knew I had little chance to turn the really good guys and refs usually wisened up after the 1st or 2nd stalemate. 

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On 3/14/2022 at 2:43 PM, Fletcher said:

2. Top guy: 5-second count if bottom guy stands and you don't mat return (same rule as now)

This is not presently a rule in college. I don't know about high school, but you won't find it in the college rule book.

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52 minutes ago, buckshot1969 said:

You should absolutely be allowed to ride w/ both legs in. It's a scoring move because of riding time and it also prevents your opponent from scoring. It's been said before but it's true- if you don't like being ridden get out from bottom. As far as the pushout goes I think it would change the dynamic of neutral wrestling too much, I don't want to see sumo wrestling. If guys are just pushing but not attempting anything else they don't deserve a point. If you want to go upper body and need the guy to push back into you why should he? Not pushing back to avoid an upper body move is the same as sprawling to avoid a leg attack imo. 

Using this standard, the top guy can never be called for stalling because riding time is a scoring move. I'd actually be OK with that because my desire is for there to be less stalling calls overall. I just know that in reality guys use the double legs as a way to make it look like they're trying for a turn when they're actually just killing time and tiring out the guy on bottom. You almost never see someone throw in double legs when they're on top and losing.

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11 minutes ago, IronChef said:

This is not presently a rule in college. I don't know about high school, but you won't find it in the college rule book.

OK - I must be confusing it with the 5-second count that starts when the top wrestler drops down to a leg in that position.

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11 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Using this standard, the top guy can never be called for stalling because riding time is a scoring move. I'd actually be OK with that because my desire is for there to be less stalling calls overall. I just know that in reality guys use the double legs as a way to make it look like they're trying for a turn when they're actually just killing time and tiring out the guy on bottom. You almost never see someone throw in double legs when they're on top and losing.

IMO if you're tiring out the guy on bottom you're setting yourself up to score later in the match.

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Instead of calling stalling on the top or the bottom guy, just have a rule that if someone is riding for 30 seconds without turning or being in the process of turning, call it dead and RESTART WITH BOTH GUYS ON THEIR FEET. This way, no one can stall for more than 30 seconds. If the bottom guy can't get out, he is let out (but with no escape point). If the top guy can't get a turn, he loses his chance to ride, but can get a takedown. 

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