The lack of importance of the team scoring again put on front Street today

[VakAttack 4,042]

Penn State won the team title 2 hours ago in front of me and about 3k people. It's silly and detrimental to the sport. Dual tournament should decide the team title.

 

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[scribe 1,848]

2-3 programs and their deep web of influence at upper levels of the sport strongly oppose this thinking. 

[Housebuye 2,453]

I hear you

i was really hoping it would come down to Amine - brooks

[4awrestler 72]

Getting my popcorn ready… I agree or at least a dual tournament earlier in the year should have some influence on the finals team total to keep people from ducking throughout the season…

Do national duals with the same points system as you use for individual scoring only just use the placement points. You win national duals as a team you get 16 points towards your team total at the championships. Top 16 teams invited make it end of January time frame

[hammerlockthree 2,637]

I started a topic about something similar, placement points need to be cut in half. I think their OP status is part of what ends the tournament on friday morning....

Edited March 19 by hammerlockthree

[JeanGuy 147]

I disagree. I'm not sure how you qualify teams. The big ten teams for instance don't even wrestle everybody in the conference.

It leads your to subjective rankings just like football. 

[dmm53 624]

34 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

 

Penn State won the team title 2 hours ago in front of me and about 3k people. It's silly and detrimental to the sport. Dual tournament should decide the team title.

 

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Well ... Penn State beat Michigan, Iowa, Arizona State, and Nebraska in duals this year:  the # 2, 3, 4, and 5 teams at NCAAs.  

No need to appeal to appeal to counterfactuals.   It's a done deal no matter how you figure it.   The race was just for second.

Edited March 19 by dmm53

[4awrestler 72]

Well ... Penn State beat Michigan, Iowa, Arizona State, and Nebraska in duals this year:  the # 2, 3, 4, and 5 teams at NCAAs.  
No need to appeal to counterfactuals.   It's a done deal no matter how you figure it.   The race was just for second.

Yes this year that is the case, it is obviously not always the case…. What does PSU have to be scared of if they’re always the best? The fact that Cael and company killed the national duals is a travesty to the sport. Duals have and always will be an important part of the sport. I would argue a heavily contested dual between 2 rival teams is just as entertaining as the national finals .


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[southend 243]

The indiana mat has a system that works for the high schools to determine a team champion, in a one class individual high school state tournament .Worth a look. This national NCAA team determination is a farce, in an individual sport, and every one knows it. Literally means nothing. 

[Jrr277 154]

National Duals never decided the team national championship. There's no incentive to put your team through that gauntlet and risk injury when your ultimate goal is the NCAA team title. This was the case long before Cael appeared. You can argue it deprives the fans and I'd agree with you, but from a coaching standpoint, the risks outweigh any upside . I think a big part of his philosophy is ensuring his wrestlers aren't beat to hell come March like we've seen Iowa this year. You can't argue with his results.

 

Edited March 19 by Jrr277

[Mizzoufan01 46]

Just now, Jrr277 said:

National Duals never decided the team national championship. There's no incentive to put your team through that gauntlet and risk injury when your ultimate goal is the NCAA team title. This was the case long before Cael appeared. You can argue it deprives the fans and I'd agree with you, but from a coaching standpoint, the risks outweigh any upside . I think a big part of his philosophy is ensuring his wrestlers aren't beat to hell like we've seen Iowa this year. You can't argue with his results.

 

That’s true, but I do think team consider it a pretty big deal. The year Mizzou won I think the team members got rings. I could be wrong but still it’s a big deal.

[Idaho 1,400]

Not saying this would or should happen but having duals matter toward a duals national tournament that combines a scoring system with the individual tournament would be interesting. 

[gimpeltf 2,089]

2 minutes ago, southend said:

The indiana mat has a system that works for the high schools to determine a team champion, in a one class individual high school state tournament .Worth a look. This national NCAA team determination is a farce, in an individual sport, and every one knows it. Literally means nothing. 

There's literally no comparison between a high state team event and a d1 event. Typically the hs versions have very little competition for the tough kids. Maybe they get 1 other tough kid all the way through. And probably not that. In the d1 version every bout would be fairly tough. You have to peak for each event in college. That's not easy to peak for duals and then again a few weeks later for conferences and then for nats.

And if you have it earlier in the season it's becomes complicated to have a coherent schedule. 

[LavionMayes 12]

1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

There's literally no comparison between a high state team event and a d1 event. Typically the hs versions have very little competition for the tough kids. Maybe they get 1 other tough kid all the way through. And probably not that. In the d1 version every bout would be fairly tough. You have to peak for each event in college. That's not easy to peak for duals and then again a few weeks later for conferences and then for nats.

And if you have it earlier in the season it's becomes complicated to have a coherent schedule. 

Conplicated? Sounds like apprehensive to create a better product.

 

Regardless, having the tournament in March is already bad enough. Majority of major sports outlets are going to be talking about UNC taking out Baylor and Kentucky losing for the rest of the weekend. Unless something superhuman happens tonight, wrestling will garner zero interest. Why not actually build up support for a team rather than a few individuals? Much easier to market and brand. Move the tournament out of March. Make it a dual format. 

[southend 243]

2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

There's literally no comparison between a high state team event and a d1 event. Typically the hs versions have very little competition for the tough kids. Maybe they get 1 other tough kid all the way through. And probably not that. In the d1 version every bout would be fairly tough. You have to peak for each event in college. That's not easy to peak for duals and then again a few weeks later for conferences and then for nats.

And if you have it earlier in the season it's becomes complicated to have a coherent schedule. 

Research before you speak. You are absolutely right. The set up for the dual competition is outside of the Indiana ,IHSAA. And doesn’t interfere or in any way get in the way of peaking for the 1 class individual championship. 

[TBar1977 4,611]

So in other words ...........

Since my team stinks and is totally uncompetitive, please, please ,pretty please change the rules!

[gimpeltf 2,089]

15 minutes ago, southend said:

Research before you speak. You are absolutely right. The set up for the dual competition is outside of the Indiana ,IHSAA. And doesn’t interfere or in any way get in the way of peaking for the 1 class individual championship. 

Maybe you should. If it's outside of the schedule and outside the state organization, it's meaningless. Think.

And you only responded to the one issue. The individual kids don't wrestle tough competition in the hs versions so peaking is irrelevant there. 

 

Edited March 19 by gimpeltf

[4awrestler 72]

So in other words ...........
Since my team stinks and is totally uncompetitive, please, please ,pretty please change the rules!

I don’t think that’s what anyone means, it certainly would not have changed this years outcome.

What it would have done is create some excitement throughout the season instead of boiling the entire seasons work into 1 weekend in March.

Explain to me why having national duals is a bad thing outside of the fear of injury which we all know can happen at any time. If injury is the only reason then we probably shouldn’t wrestle at all during the regular season just take it to a vote who the 33 wrestlers should be at each weight because my gosh someone could get injured GTFO with that lame excuse…. This is wrestling, fricken wrestle!!


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[TBar1977 4,611]

5 minutes ago, 4awrestler said:

I don’t think that’s what anyone means, it certainly would not have changed this years outcome.

What it would have done is create some excitement throughout the season instead of boiling the entire seasons work into 1 weekend in March.

Explain to me why having national duals is a bad thing outside of the fear of injury which we all know can happen at any time. If injury is the only reason then we probably shouldn’t wrestle at all during the regular season just take it to a vote who the 33 wrestlers should be at each weight because my gosh someone could get injured GTFO with that lame excuse…. This is wrestling, fricken wrestle!!


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No one is stopping you from having a national dual tournament. Go ahead. Invite any teams you want. 

It just won't be the NCAA Championship and not everyone will get geeked up for it.

We had what amounts to a national duals tournament this year already. Down in Florida. PSU beat everyone. Not the same thing as The NCAA Championships. 

[ionel 2,749]

1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

 

Penn State won the team title 2 hours ago in front of me and about 3k people. It's silly and detrimental to the sport. Dual tournament should decide the team title.

 

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DDM ... ask Carl.  :(

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I was hoping tbar would contribute his precious thoughts on this matter. 

[southend 243]

23 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Maybe you should. If it's outside of the schedule and outside the state organization, it's meaningless. Think.

And you only responded to the one issue. The individual kids don't wrestle tough competition in the hs versions so peaking is irrelevant there. 

 

Research the Indiana mat tournament. It’s not meaningless. It is the dual state championship. 

[scribe 1,848]

There should really be a short regular season beginning in January. Team championship tournament the end of February. Then qualifier and individual nationals. The whole thing in 2.5 months. 
 

risk of injury seems more likely over a 4.5. month season. You don’t have to wrestle the full squad at team championships unless you need to, so this isn’t the best reasoning against either. 

[LavionMayes 12]

13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

No one is stopping you from having a national dual tournament. Go ahead. Invite any teams you want. 

It just won't be the NCAA Championship and not everyone will get geeked up for it.

We had what amounts to a national duals tournament this year already. Down in Florida. PSU beat everyone. Not the same thing as The NCAA Championships. 

It's not only about winning the championship. It's more about actually making the sport interesting enough for schools to stop cutting programs. Stanford was blessed to not lose their program last year because the school didn't want to go to court. Keep this current format the same and there will be less programs.

 

Sweet 16, Elite 8, and Final Four teams all get pretty good recognition. Wrestling is one of the few sports where being 3rd is no better than 8th. 

[jammen 341]

40 minutes ago, Jrr277 said:

National Duals never decided the team national championship. There's no incentive to put your team through that gauntlet and risk injury when your ultimate goal is the NCAA team title. This was the case long before Cael appeared. You can argue it deprives the fans and I'd agree with you, but from a coaching standpoint, the risks outweigh any upside . I think a big part of his philosophy is ensuring his wrestlers aren't beat to hell come March like we've seen Iowa this year. You can't argue with his results.

 

Well, this is completely wrong.  Here's some history for you so you can see the great teams that have battled for a National Duals title:http://wrestlingstats.com/NWCA/PDF/NWCA National Duals.pdf

Also, Cael had a 2-6-1 dual record versus Minny, Iowa, Okie St, and OH St when he campaigned against the National Dual Championship proposal and published his infamous blog post.  That was the deciding factor.