The lack of importance of the team scoring again put on front Street today

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

Imagine if the NCAA Basketball tournament was decided by a series of round robin games where the total point differential of each team decided the winner of the tournament. That’s kind of like how NCAA wrestling scoring works.

The dual format is exciting and simple. It’s obvious what team is winning and it often comes down to the last match or two. The tournament format is decided at 9 AM EDT on Saturday morning. 
 

The best team should be decided by a dual. The best individuals, by a tournament. 

[Plasmodium 2,318]

2 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

that's not true.

1) you can look at the scoreboard

2) it's 4 for a win + bonus. it's not difficult. 

Uh, 90% don't know that.

[Joe1288 8]

1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

Imagine if the NCAA Basketball tournament was decided by a series of round robin games where the total point differential of each team decided the winner of the tournament. That’s kind of like how NCAA wrestling scoring works.

The dual format is exciting and simple. It’s obvious what team is winning and it often comes down to the last match or two. The tournament format is decided at 9 AM EDT on Saturday morning. 
 

The best team should be decided by a dual. The best individuals, by a tournament. 

Good idea. Penn State wins that too.

[Mr. Poopy butthole 314]

It would be cool if we had a true dual team championship since it would mean even more exciting wrestling events.

However, if the dual championship negatively impacts the tournament championship (injuries, for example), I would be displeased. 

Wrestling is a niche sport. What do we have to lose if we experiment one year? 

[Wrestleknownothing 1,680]

It would help if wrestling was a team sport. But it is not. It is an aggregation of individual results in either format.

I see people attempting to draw parallels to team sports like basketball, but it never quite works because basketball is actually a team sport. The team works together, on the court, at the same time, and the performance of each teammate has a direct impact on the others.

So whatever artificial wrapper is chosen to determine a wrestling team title will always seem wrong to some. Some will be unhappy with a dual format and others with an individual tourney. The team construct is a useful fiction, but a fiction none the less.

Edited March 31 by Wrestleknownothing

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

36 minutes ago, Joe1288 said:

Good idea. Penn State wins that too.

Why do Penn State fans think this is about them?  It's not.  It's just a more exciting format for the fans.

 

24 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It would help if wrestling was a team sport. But it is not. It is an aggregation of individual results in either format.

I see people attempting to draw parallels to team sports like basketball, but it never quite works because basketball is actually a team sport. The team works together, on the court, at the same time, and the performance of each teammate has a direct impact on the others.

So whatever artificial wrapper is chosen to determine a wrestling team title will always seem wrong to some. Some will be unhappy with a dual format and others with an individual tourney. The team construct is a useful fiction, but a fictional none the less.

You're acting like the dual format doesn't exist and isn't used in high school wrestling to determine team state champions.  The dual format is a thing, has existed for decades, and is undeniably more exciting than a tournament. 

[Husker_Du 885]

3 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Uh, 90% don't know that.

then i direct you back to option 1) 

 look at the scoreboard

[Husker_Du 885]

let me ask this question (and i'm not being rhetorical)

you guys think that the reason ncaa's is the most wild, well attended wrestling event on earth is not because it's the most exciting, but because it has the ncaa title attached to it?

as in, if you had a national duals at the end of the year and slapped an ncaa title on to it, you honestly believe that the excitement, attendance, press, fanfare, and coverage would be equal to or greater than what we have now? 

[Billyhoyle 2,500]

5 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

let me ask this question (and i'm not being rhetorical)

you guys think that the reason ncaa's is the most wild, well attended wrestling event on earth is not because it's the most exciting, but because it has the ncaa title attached to it?

as in, if you had a national duals at the end of the year and slapped an ncaa title on to it, you honestly believe that the excitement, attendance, press, fanfare, and coverage would be equal to or greater than what we have now? 

The NCAA tournament would be great, wild, and well attended regardless of the team component. It's more of an individual event, and the team component is happening slowly over the course of three days. The most expensive ticket and best attended session is always the finals, which rarely if ever has implications on the team score. 

A dual tournament would be entirely based on the team component, and the finals of it would decide the team championship.  Splitting the individual and dual components would create two great events and improve the excitement around the team score. It would also create an avenue to force regular season duals to be meaningful and limit ducking (qualifying for the dual tournament should be based on regular season dual results). Kind of like how every regular season NCAA football game matters, every regular season dual would suddenly have implications on the team championship.

As somebody who covers the sport, wouldn't you want a dual meet in January to have the same meaning and implications and team title as  a week 6 NCAA football game? 

[JasonBryant 2,123]

8 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

2) it's 4 for a win + bonus. it's not difficult. 

EDIT: I didn't see any distinction in the line of discussion about this being specific to finals, so that being said, the reply is below.

That's ONLY for the finals, every other round has varying degrees of points, which are completely different from a victory in a dual meet.  

Championship side - Point possibilities for pigtails and rounds prior to the quarterfinals are 1, 2, 2.5 or 3 points.
Quarterfinal point possibilities are 7, 8, 8.5 or 9. Same with semifinals. Finals are 4, 5, 5.5, or 6. 

Consolations before the bloodround are .5, 1.5, 2, 2.5. 
When you hit the bloodround through the consolation semifinals, it's 3.5, 4.5, 5 or 5.5. 
3, 5, 7 Placement rounds are 1, 2, 2.5 and 3. 

One of the most requested things from people who bought my preview guide in the earlier years (and those are our die-hards) was a round-by-round scoring primer, which I put the points in the bracket per round so people know what round scores what. It's NOT a simple thing, even for those of us who live this stuff. 

 

[Plasmodium 2,318]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

let me ask this question (and i'm not being rhetorical)

you guys think that the reason ncaa's is the most wild, well attended wrestling event on earth is not because it's the most exciting, but because it has the ncaa title attached to it?

as in, if you had a national duals at the end of the year and slapped an ncaa title on to it, you honestly believe that the excitement, attendance, press, fanfare, and coverage would be equal to or greater than what we have now? 

1) it is because of the NCAA title, which is the reason for the season.

2) Hard no

[Plasmodium 2,318]

4 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

then i direct you back to option 1) 

 look at the scoreboard

Fans don't understand the true impact of matches, which diminishes the experience.

[Wrestleknownothing 1,680]

6 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

 

You're acting like the dual format doesn't exist and isn't used in high school wrestling to determine team state champions.  The dual format is a thing, has existed for decades, and is undeniably more exciting than a tournament. 

I don't think I am. I am saying regardless of the format chosen there will be detractors because wrestling is not naturally a team sport.

I will take it one step further. The fact that there are two competing ways to determine the best team is evidence that it is not a team sport.

If you have two ways to determine a title, you don't have any.

[southend 243]

15 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Fans don't understand the true impact of matches, which diminishes the experience.

This is true, they actually “don’t know” what they are missing. Most of the time. Oh they know the importance of quartet finals, but only a select few get the , true impact of matches.  

[southend 243]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I don't think I am. I am saying regardless of the format chosen there will be detractors because wrestling is not naturally a team sport.

I will take it one step further. The fact that there are two competing ways to determine the best team is evidence that it is not a team sport.

If you have two ways to determine a title, you don't have any.

But your point is not factual, there in-lies the debate. Only one way to determine the best TEAM.

[GockeS 550]

8 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It would help if wrestling was a team sport. But it is not. It is an aggregation of individual results in either format.

I see people attempting to draw parallels to team sports like basketball, but it never quite works because basketball is actually a team sport. The team works together, on the court, at the same time, and the performance of each teammate has a direct impact on the others.

So whatever artificial wrapper is chosen to determine a wrestling team title will always seem wrong to some. Some will be unhappy with a dual format and others with an individual tourney. The team construct is a useful fiction, but a fiction none the less.

im pretty sure that penn state disagrees after winning its 80th title in just 83 years...

the team does work together, in practice, iron sharpens iron, and if you dont believe that i have an example for you

one wrestler can affect another, its called momentum. an average guy winning pumps up the rest and a star losing can deflate or inspire 

i am not really a fan of the dual tourney, like i have said i worked against it in high school, but im always about MORE good wrestling 

[TBar1977 4,611]

The best way to determine the strongest team i.e. the best team is the current ncaa tournament. 

[GockeS 550]

i dont disagree

but you guys dont think it would be exciting to see the finals of the dual tourney decided by shultz vs kerk?

or they move the start to make it end at 174 and its kemdawg vs starocci for the title? 

etc etc 

[fadzaev2 551]

11 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

that's not true.

1) you can look at the scoreboard

2) it's 4 for a win + bonus. it's not difficult. 

 

9 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Uh, 90% don't know that.

Then educate them....put it in the program/post it/announce it.  Educate the fans...spread the word!!!

[TBar1977 4,611]

25 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

 

Then educate them....put it in the program/post it/announce it.  Educate the fans...spread the word!!!

Or tell them to look at the scoreboard. Pretty basic stuff. 

[fadzaev2 551]

1 hour ago, fadzaev2 said:

 

Then educate them....put it in the program/post it/announce it.  Educate the fans...spread the word!!!

 

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Or tell them to look at the scoreboard. Pretty basic stuff. 

I'm talking about it for looking ahead....what if.....if so and so wins here, it's worth 4 more points, plus bonus points, etc.

[JasonBryant 2,123]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Or tell them to look at the scoreboard. Pretty basic stuff. 

Is that how you'd answer a first-timer coming into the sport who wants to know HOW the championship is scored? 

 

[TheHeel 71]

3 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

Is that how you'd answer a first-timer coming into the sport who wants to know HOW the championship is scored? 

 

good point. doesn't mean I want dual championship to decide team champ. the only change I want to see is a takedown being worth 3.

Edited March 31 by TheHeel

[GockeS 550]

2 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

 

Then educate them....put it in the program/post it/announce it.  Educate the fans...spread the word!!!

i believe it's actually on the brackets they sell, or in the program.. not sure if it still is... but used to be

[LavionMayes 12]

10 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

It would help if wrestling was a team sport. But it is not. It is an aggregation of individual results in either format.

I see people attempting to draw parallels to team sports like basketball, but it never quite works because basketball is actually a team sport. The team works together, on the court, at the same time, and the performance of each teammate has a direct impact on the others.

So whatever artificial wrapper is chosen to determine a wrestling team title will always seem wrong to some. Some will be unhappy with a dual format and others with an individual tourney. The team construct is a useful fiction, but a fiction none the less.

Look at collegiate tennis. There are singles champs, doubles champs, and team champs. So you can be the best individual but the team in it's whole has to be good to be a team champ. They run 3 seperate tournaments per gender. This is what we are advocating for. Separate tournaments for team and individuals.

 

Cross country qualifies through teams but an individual can win a national championship and a different team can win. They run 1 race per gender. This is not what we do because we dont allow all 10 guys on a team to wrestle at NCAAs.

 

Swimming or track allow multiple student athletes from a school to qualify for the same event and do a team scoring for one tournament. We do not do this because because these athletes compete for benchmarks, not for placing in a qualifier. So a team here can have a National champion and runner up in the same event on the same year. 

 

 

Do you think tennis is doing it wrong on the collegiate level?