Jump to content
VakAttack

The lack of importance of the team scoring again put on front Street today

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, TheHeel said:

Seems like you could run it 2 weeks after the individual championships, with a nice fat weight allowance. Let Flo run it and sell it, and put cash prizes down through an NIL deal and you might be on to something. I don't care if they want to do it, just don't **** with the way NCAAs is at all. 

this is how the state here proposed it... went over like a lead balloon with the kids.

ncaa season... and then they start training for worlds...

so this would cut into that time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GockeS said:

this is how the state here proposed it... went over like a lead balloon with the kids.

ncaa season... and then they start training for worlds...

so this would cut into that time

thats a good point

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Hey, he's talking about me.

But it's even worse than that. I never wrestled. I was a swimmer. While I have been around wrestling for a bit, I certainly am not a lifer. I have attended three NCAA tournaments and five or six state tournaments. When compared to some of the grizzled vets on this forum, that isn't even a rounding error.

I probably have come across as a bit of a buzzkill, though that wasn't my intent. I just think the team aspect is a bit of a stretch when compared to sports where the entire team participates at the same time.

The ability of one to get elite and/or be consistent without… 

(1. training partners,

2. good “team”culture 

3. good coaching, 

and one could add

4. being on teams with institutional memory of winning 

if they do wished.)

…is severely limited. Yes guys get out, but not nearly on the scale people would think if you just see it as “only” an individual sport. 
 

The relationship, between the team and individual aspect is extremely symbiotic. 

NCST would not have jumped levels so quickly if wrestling was “just an individual sport”. It was not a bunch of elite studs brought in to do their own thing. It was a team of mixed talent all working together for the same goal. 
 

You see the team aspect in close matches. Teams with institutional memories of winning tend to pull out close matches or do better at state/nationals. Even their backups. Because, that’s what their “team” does. Their “team” wins close matches, their “team” wins at nationals/state. 
 

I could go on. But my point is simple. Wrestling really isn’t “just an individual” sport. Especially if you want consistent above average success 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

perhaps it would, if it were the national championship...

This isn't a chicken or egg scenario. It is not a national championship because not enough people have ever taken to it to make the powers that be interested in the idea. Not seriously anyway. 

Everyone on this board currently interested in the idea could form a group, all sign on to some sort of letter asking the NCAA to consider the idea and see what happens. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jp157 said:

The ability of one to get elite and/or be consistent without… 

(1. training partners,

2. good “team”culture 

3. good coaching, 

and one could add

4. being on teams with institutional memory of winning 

if they do wished.)

…is severely limited. Yes guys get out, but not nearly on the scale people would think if you just see it as “only” an individual sport. 
 

The relationship, between the team and individual aspect is extremely symbiotic. 

NCST would not have jumped levels so quickly if wrestling was “just an individual sport”. It was not a bunch of elite studs brought in to do their own thing. It was a team of mixed talent all working together for the same goal. 
 

You see the team aspect in close matches. Teams with institutional memories of winning tend to pull out close matches or do better at state/nationals. Even their backups. Because, that’s what their “team” does. Their “team” wins close matches, their “team” wins at nationals/state. 
 

I could go on. But my point is simple. Wrestling really isn’t “just an individual” sport. Especially if you want consistent above average success 

While I agree with all of that, the same is true for what I consider to be other individual sports. Boxing requires good training partners, swimming requires good training partners, etc. But none of those training partners can help you while you are on the mat. But certainly the team culture and coaching can. Heck, Nick Lee said in his post title interviews two years in a row, that RBY winning right in front of him inspired him and was important to him.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

We literally have one of the more prominent members of the wrestling media, Jason Bryant, in this thread arguing on the subject (and another of the most prominent, Willie Saylor, arguing against it).  You have NCAA finalist and three time All American Lavion Mayes arguing for it.  You had several NCAA head coaches pushing for it a couple of years ago.  That's not including the fan discussion here.  So, yes, serious people do want it.

Why did the NCAA head coaches stop pushing for it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

That would be too long a search. You can chhose to disregard if you think I just made it up out of whole cloth. I didn't, but if you wish to disregard I am fine with it. 

So you can ask people for links but can't provide your own, got it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Make no mistake, I don’t expect it. Nor, do I think anything I post here will make even the slightest difference.  I simply really want it to happen and like talking about the reasons I think it would be great. 
 

Again, I really think the MHSAA runs both events masterfully and the end product is fantastic. Now, I know you can’t compare the logistics of 1 high school state format to a national DI college format, but I think it could work if the support was there and the right minds came together to work out the details. 
 

My pipe dream…

Does Michigan also keep a team score at the individual tournament?  For example, I know NJ does not and yet is still considered to be one of the "best" state tournaments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dual championships would be a feast of the rich and would probably widen the gap between the haves and have nots. could change competitive balance and make the sport even more top heavy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TheHeel said:

dual championships would be a feast of the rich and would probably widen the gap between the haves and have nots. could change competitive balance and make the sport even more top heavy. 

This is fallacious.  Upsets are much more likely in duals than in tournaments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TheHeel said:

dual championships would be a feast of the rich and would probably widen the gap between the haves and have nots. could change competitive balance and make the sport even more top heavy. 

It would because the field would be limited. No way they have put on a 64 team field. Nobody would watch. PSU or Iowa vs Little Sisters of the Poor is not competitive or even worth the watch. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Does Michigan also keep a team score at the individual tournament?  For example, I know NJ does not and yet is still considered to be one of the "best" state tournaments.

Nope.  Michigangrappler.com likes to add them up themselves(unofficially), but the team champs are decided ONLY by the dual meet format.

Just to give a bit more info and clarity:

1.)Team States are set up almost the same as the Individual portion and each segment runs within a week of each other.

2.)Michigan has 4 Divisions(I,II,III,IIII) with I being the largest based on enrollment and IIII being the smallest.

3.)Michigan has Districts, Regionals and States for both Team and Individual.  Team Districts are done on a Wednesday, with Individual Districts being done the following Saturday.  The same goes for Regionals.  Team States is done the next weekend after Individual Regionals and Individuals are the following week.

4.)  Team Districts(1 day event) is set up to have 32 districts(per division) of roughly 4 teams each(the amount of teams at districts differs per division due to total number of teams).  Of the 32 District winners, 4 move into their designated bracket out of the 8 Regional brackets(1 day event) with the 8 winner's of that moving onto the State bracket.   The final 8 teams are then seeded per Division and wrestled across 2 days of competition.

5.) Individual Districts(1 day event) is set up to have 8 districts(per division) of roughly 20 teams as about the high in DI with less in DIIII.  The top 4 placers from 2 districts(per division)  move on to 1 of 4 regions(8 person brackets wrestled in 1 day).  The top 4 finishers(per division) of those 4 regions then move on to States(16 person bracket), with a pre set formula determining quadrants with the winner of  1 region wrestling the 4th place finisher of another region with the 2nd place finisher wrestling the 3rd place finisher of that other region as well.  

https://www.mhsaa.com/sports/wrestling

Edited by MSU158

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

So D1 coaches seem to express an ambivalence of sorts towards the event. My point is simply that if the format was as in demand as the posters in these here forums imply it to be then we'd be having these duals in one place or another under one name or another and it would have all sorted itself out long ago. Maybe there will be some duals thing or another as was the case this past winter in Niceville, but ideas of a duals national championship are a pipedream. 

The ambivalence has nothing to do with things you want to believe support your perspective. It's not the fact it's a dual meet event. It's also a fundraiser for our kids club back in Virginia, so by all means, continue to sh*t on it for the sake of your narrative. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 4awrestler said:


Could you give us the truth of the matter? I’m honestly asking for clarification. How many coaches and which ones were asked and who was against it/for it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i've done so a million times on this board and i'm over it.

i only keep allowing myself to be sucked back into this thread b/c i read obvious misconceptions (and a ton of bad takes).

someone ban me! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

While I agree with all of that, the same is true for what I consider to be other individual sports. Boxing requires good training partners, swimming requires good training partners, etc. But none of those training partners can help you while you are on the mat. But certainly the team culture and coaching can. Heck, Nick Lee said in his post title interviews two years in a row, that RBY winning right in front of him inspired him and was important to him.

 

I said it’s symbiotic. My issue is people underrating or ignoring the team aspect. And again. Not to be a snob. Simply my observation. Is that the people who don’t really get how important the team aspect is. Either,  didn’t wrestle that much/only did youth. Or was the “one good guy on a team” and have a borderline randian personal myth. 
 

Again, not trying to be a snob. It’s my observation. The same way I’ve observed that every person I know who played any college sports are almost all more relaxed coaching youth sports than those that didn’t. 
 Or how there is a very distinct difference between coaches used to developing “and” “maybe” “acquiring” talent. Vs the coaches that just assume they need to acquire it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

don't conflate the NWCA and the NCAA wanting a duals championship with

'the majority of coaches' and/or 'what's best for the athletes'

as the same thing. 

was the vote posted in the old thread not from coaches?  although I know there was a comment about Koll or someone supposedly strongarming people? 

Edit: even if it was not the "majority," someone was claiming that "no serious person" wanted it.   Surely at least some coaches want it right?

Edited by 1032004

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TheHeel said:

dual championships would be a feast of the rich and would probably widen the gap between the haves and have nots. could change competitive balance and make the sport even more top heavy. 

The gap is already HUGE between the haves & have nots.  Can’t see how holding a dual format would make the “competitive balance” any worse than it already is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Show_Me said:

The gap is already HUGE between the haves & have nots.  Can’t see how holding a dual format would make the “competitive balance” any worse than it already is.

because proponents of duals are hoping for fluke and happenstance with once in a blue moon upsets. the same reason they vouch for it is the same reason it's an inferior arbiter or 'best'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

because proponents of duals are hoping for fluke and happenstance with once in a blue moon upsets. the same reason they vouch for it is the same reason it's an inferior arbiter or 'best'

No, all most people are hoping for is another exciting wrestling event, and to make the regular season better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...