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Just now, 4awrestler said:


I get your point and maybe I’m wrong but how many freestyle matches have 5 push outs against one guy? I think there’s a fair amount of cushion in five stall calls to keep it the way it’s suggested… now If the OT rules were changed to unlimited clock and on their feet then it wouldn’t work for sure, just too much neutral wrestling to not have someone go out 5 times in a match.


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Ive seen Gilman score as many as five pushouts in a match. Happens pretty frequently actually.

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Ive seen Gilman score as many as five pushouts in a match. Happens pretty frequently actually.

Ok then I’m wrong, in the freestyle matches I’ve watched it seemed like that 5 push outs points were pretty infrequent

Back to the drawing board, I still like some sort of push out rule, maybe you get 2 then it’s stall calls.


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2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

Fair enough.  In the long run, we are losing teams.  We're down from where we were 20 years ago.  But there have been teams added.

Title 9 did that more than disagreement over how to wrestle, folk vs free. 

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2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

I see what Willie said. His point and my point are not the same point. He is talking about the rules, while I mentioned fan reactions to losing. Willie isn't one of those fans, so his desire to change the rules are to make the sport better (in his view). Their desire to change the rules, at least for many of them, is quite obviously to alter the outcome for their wrestlers. 

You are going to disagree and probably accuse me of all manner of bad faith here. You do that a lot. No biggie. Fire away. 

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3 hours ago, Katie said:

There are actually pro freestyle leagues in Germany, India, and Iran. Are there any pro folkstyle leagues?

I think that where there was an attempt at a wrestling league here in the US — Real Pro Wrestling — those who had invested time and money in it used a set of rules that was largely a hybrid of folk and free.  

I remember watching that.  I think joe Williams participated right ?   It did fail though no?

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I remember watching that.  I think joe Williams participated right ?   It did fail though no?

Doug Schwab, Sammie Henson, Joe Williams and Daniel Cormier were all apart of it from what I remember.


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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I see what Willie said. His point and my point are not the same point. He is talking about the rules, while I mentioned fan reactions to losing. Willie isn't one of those fans, so his desire to change the rules are to make the sport better (in his view). Their desire to change the rules, at least for many of them, is quite obviously to alter the outcome for their wrestlers. 

You are going to disagree and probably accuse me of all manner of bad faith here. You do that a lot. No biggie. Fire away. 

You're literally telling us what other people are thinking internally and trying to pretend it's some good faith argument and trying to parse semantics at the same time.  These Iowa fans and Willie Saylor are arguing for the same thing and you're accusing the Iowa fans of some ulterior motive beyond wanting to watch what they perceive as a superior style of wrestling.  You have an Iowa fan in this thread arguing against this position.    You're just, as always, trying to have it both ways.  Argue the merits of the point put forward by these Iowa fans and Willie Saylor.

 

By the way, I just went and perused the thread, and it's literally people arguing both sides of the point.  So only the ones who are arguing for switching to freestyle have the ulterior motives, while the ones for maintaining the status quo are...what?  Virtuous because they agree with you?  You do this thing where you report on what's happening on the Hawkeye Report and more often than not are misrepresenting or, at best, hyperbolizing, what is going on over there as some attempt to take shots at them.  That's kind of sad.

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I feel like there needs to be more reward for getting a takedown.  

My proposal is to remove points for any escape that comes after a takedown (or reversal). The only way to score an escape point should be if you begin down at the beginning of a period. I just feel like, for the most part, a takedown is currently only really worth 1 point in the current scoring system — similar to how a TD in the NFL is really worth 7 points (even though it’s technically only worth 6). To me, the fact that a wrestler can lose the following match:

  • Wrestler A gets takedown (2-0)
  • Wrestler A releases wrestler B (2-1)
  • Wrestler B starts period 2 down, escapes (2-2)
  • Wrestler A chooses "neutral" for period 3 start
  • Wrestler B starts SV down, escapes (2-3)

is an indicator that takedowns aren’t valued high-enough. In this example, wrestler A was never "controlled" by wrestler B, yet loses. Folkstyle was meant to be about around man-handling / controlling your opponent. Giving a point for merely returning to neutral after being taken down is antithetical to this premise.

I would also propose making a tech fall (with or without near-fall) worth the same as a pin. One might argue that a tech-fall demonstrates more dominance than a pin as the latter can occur in cases where the dominant wrestler (e.g. up 14-0 with 10 seconds left) gets caught in a flukey situation.  But a tech fall is never a fluke – in that you’d never say that the winner of a tech fall was less dominant than their opponent.

Edited by Ferentzfever
Clarification

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The refs have made it perfectly clear that they won't control the stuff that we don't like.  The remedy cannot be a subjective approach, it has to be an objective rule.

I watch a freestyle match and it's clear to me that having a barrier at the edge to which a scoring consequence is attached completely changes the flow of the action.

You can't really blame T. Hidlay for tailoring his game to the rules.  That's what humans do, they tailor their conduct to the rules and the way they're enforced.

You can add one thing, the pushout rule, to folkstyle and still have folkstyle, and still have mat wrestling.  And I believe that the people who get frustrated by mat wrestling will be less frustrated when the second and third periods follow fewer scoreless three minute first periods full of non-action and half-flurries on the edge.

And the two minute overtime will have way more action if there is a pushout rule.

Add one rule change and see what happens. In the unlikely event it doesn't work, then take it away and try something else.

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6 hours ago, 4awrestler said:


Again if it were freestyle was tied to college and folkstyle tied to wtt or us open would the results be flip flopped is my point. I think if freestyle were tied to college wrestling attendance wouldn’t magically drop to what wtt and us open attendance is.


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People attend the event because of the college, not the wrestling style. 

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2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

You're literally telling us what other people are thinking internally and trying to pretend it's some good faith argument and trying to parse semantics at the same time.  These Iowa fans and Willie Saylor are arguing for the same thing and you're accusing the Iowa fans of some ulterior motive beyond wanting to watch what they perceive as a superior style of wrestling.  You have an Iowa fan in this thread arguing against this position.    You're just, as always, trying to have it both ways.  Argue the merits of the point put forward by these Iowa fans and Willie Saylor.

 

By the way, I just went and perused the thread, and it's literally people arguing both sides of the point.  So only the ones who are arguing for switching to freestyle have the ulterior motives, while the ones for maintaining the status quo are...what?  Virtuous because they agree with you?  You do this thing where you report on what's happening on the Hawkeye Report and more often than not are misrepresenting or, at best, hyperbolizing, what is going on over there as some attempt to take shots at them.  That's kind of sad.

I said there was a similar thread on HR, and there is. Pretty simple stuff.

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1 minute ago, ThorsteinV said:

RBY is awesome and it’s bizarre to me that he routinely beats Fix. Would be beat him in freestyle too?

RBY is world class-level IMO. I’d favor him in freestyle over Fix, assuming he trains in freestyle already.

But I think Cormier said RBY spends some time training with Dominic Cruz (MMA guy), so maybe RBY has rusty freestyle skills. I don’t know. 

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