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Let’s talk stalling on top

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Here is a definition I found online (Indiana wrestling presentation) - 

It is stalling on the wrestler in the advantage position when the offensive wrestler does not wrestler aggressively and attempt to score or secure a fall.  Talks about ‘riding hips’ and moves used just to hold onto opponent.

I saw a TON of this at NCAAs.  Wrestlers making zero attempt to turn.  Moves meant to just ‘hold on.’ 
 

I’m sure many of you saw the same thing.  Yet, refs did not call stalling on top hardly at all.  
 

If this is allowed then I’m becoming less and less of a fan of ‘mat’ wrestling.  And more of a fan of changing to freestyle rule.

Edited by nom

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The college wording is a little different.  It does say “wrestle aggressively” (and “sustain active wrestling”) but  it doesn’t actually say anything about “attempting to secure a fall.”   But I still agree more top stalling should be called even based on the current rule set.  But changing the wording to be more specific would probably help too.

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22 minutes ago, nom said:

Here is a definition I found online (Indiana wrestling presentation) - 

It is stalling on the wrestler in the advantage position when the offensive wrestler does not wrestler aggressively and attempt to score or secure a fall.  Talks about ‘riding hips’ and moves used just to hold onto opponent.

I saw a TON of this at NCAAs.  Wrestlers making zero attempt to turn.  Moves meant to just ‘hold on.’ 
 

I’m sure many of you saw the same thing.  Yet, refs did not call stalling on top hardly at all.  
 

If this is allowed then I’m becoming less and less of a fan of ‘mat’ wrestling.  And more of a fan of changing to freestyle rule.

This is how people have wrestled top for a long time. Remember Dustin Schlatter’s claw ride? Tony Nelson’s spiral? Folkstyle has always been boring. 

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95% of current NCAA wrestlers do not ride to turn, they ride to ride.  And that may be generous. 

Hook bank ankle, forward pressure. If they step up, pick up their outside leg until you get to a 4 count.  Build up and return to the mat.  If they get to their feet, follow them to the boundary and lift (or attempt a half-assed lift) on the edge.  Back to center.  Rinse and repeat.  

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Still goes back to what do you expect the top guys to do? If he is focused on winning he is going to ride. Does anyone think Amine was going to be turned by Brooks if he stopped riding parallel and went for the fall. This is folkstlyle at the highest level. It is too hard to turn guys. Not everyone is Spencer Lee. 

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13 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The college wording is a little different.  It does say “wrestle aggressively” (and “sustain active wrestling”) but  it doesn’t actually say anything about “attempting to secure a fall.”   But I still agree more top stalling should be called even based on the current rule set.  But changing the wording to be more specific would probably help too.

Ahh, I didn’t know that.  Would you (or anyone) happen to have the exact wording for college wrestling?

 

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The stalling rules aren’t bad. The problem is refs are afraid to call it. It’s not difficult. The bottom wrestler is laying on his belly and his head on the mat then it’s stalling. If the top man is riding parallel on the hips then it is stalling. 
 

I enjoy good mat wrestling where the bottom man is moving and the top man is trying to return him and flatten the bottom man. Once the bottom man is flat or under control the top man should be off the hips. 
 

It isn’t hard to see it just takes guts to call. 

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39 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Still goes back to what do you expect the top guys to do? If he is focused on winning he is going to ride. Does anyone think Amine was going to be turned by Brooks if he stopped riding parallel and went for the fall. This is folkstlyle at the highest level. It is too hard to turn guys. Not everyone is Spencer Lee. 

You'd get a like if I had one

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I know I’ll probably get grilled for this and it by no means would have changed the outcome of the match but Nick Lee hardly left the hips of his opponent the entire finals match. In a high school match he would have been hit for stalling for never getting out to the side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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3 hours ago, ppitts71 said:

The stalling rules aren’t bad. The problem is refs are afraid to call it. It’s not difficult. The bottom wrestler is laying on his belly and his head on the mat then it’s stalling. If the top man is riding parallel on the hips then it is stalling. 
 

I enjoy good mat wrestling where the bottom man is moving and the top man is trying to return him and flatten the bottom man. Once the bottom man is flat or under control the top man should be off the hips. 
 

It isn’t hard to see it just takes guts to call. 

I agree, in the finals... DC kept saying... I just dont know why they aren't calling stalling in these situations

i know why... 

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 From the top position, when both wrestlers are on their feet, shoving out of bounds should be call stalling.

In my view, at 184, Aaron Brooks kept shoving Myles Amine out of bounds while riding from the standing position. I found it surprising the ref only called one stalling on him. A couple seemed blatant. I don't fault Brooks. It the ref lets you do it, keep doing it. 

Shoving someone toward the edge of the mat instead trying a mat return should be called also. It is an attempt to force someone toward the edge of the mat, so when the bottom guy tries an escape, the action goes out of bounds.

Also, I find it particularly annoying when the top man has 1 foot in, the bottom wrestler and is not in danger of being turned for a near fall, and completely out of bounds. The top guy waits for the 4-count, and then takes his toe out. No scoring can occur; it just gives the top guy a few more seconds of riding time. Itt should be called out of bounds when no one has the chance to score.

 

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This is how people have wrestled top for a long time. Remember Dustin Schlatter’s claw ride? Tony Nelson’s spiral? Folkstyle has always been boring. 

Dustin Schlatter lit the scoreboard up his championship season. Once he started having injuries he may have had to hold on

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13 minutes ago, Badger Fan said:

 From the top position, when both wrestlers are on their feet, shoving out of bounds should be call stalling.

In my view, at 184, Aaron Brooks kept shoving Myles Amine out of bounds while riding from the standing position. I found it surprising the ref only called one stalling on him. A couple seemed blatant. I don't fault Brooks. It the ref lets you do it, keep doing it. 

Shoving someone toward the edge of the mat instead trying a mat return should be called also. It is an attempt to force someone toward the edge of the mat, so when the bottom guy tries an escape, the action goes out of bounds.

Also, I find it particularly annoying when the top man has 1 foot in, the bottom wrestler and is not in danger of being turned for a near fall, and completely out of bounds. The top guy waits for the 4-count, and then takes his toe out. No scoring can occur; it just gives the top guy a few more seconds of riding time. Itt should be called out of bounds when no one has the chance to score.

 

yes

i have no likes... so quoted 

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14 minutes ago, Badger Fan said:

 From the top position, when both wrestlers are on their feet, shoving out of bounds should be call stalling.

In my view, at 184, Aaron Brooks kept shoving Myles Amine out of bounds while riding from the standing position. I found it surprising the ref only called one stalling on him. A couple seemed blatant. I don't fault Brooks. It the ref lets you do it, keep doing it. 

Shoving someone toward the edge of the mat instead trying a mat return should be called also. It is an attempt to force someone toward the edge of the mat, so when the bottom guy tries an escape, the action goes out of bounds.

Also, I find it particularly annoying when the top man has 1 foot in, the bottom wrestler and is not in danger of being turned for a near fall, and completely out of bounds. The top guy waits for the 4-count, and then takes his toe out. No scoring can occur; it just gives the top guy a few more seconds of riding time. Itt should be called out of bounds when no one has the chance to score.

 

The worst offender on this for most of the year was Jacob Warner.  He got better for the last month or so, but for most of the year, he would just have guys standing up and he would return them or push them out.  It was brutal.  The last month he went to a more standard top stalling ride of staying parallel and never really attempting to turn.  Which is frustrating since, if you watched his NCAA semifinal, you would know that HE CAN TURN PEOPLE.  Sign.  Anyway, I agree with the assessment of you and most, top wrestling in particular has become egregious for the vast majority of college wrestling.  

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On 3/20/2022 at 9:44 AM, nom said:

Ahh, I didn’t know that.  Would you (or anyone) happen to have the exact wording for college wrestling?

 

 

Here is the entire section on stalling:

https://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/WR23.pdf

Section 7. Stalling Art. 1. Description. One or both wrestlers attempting to avoid wrestling action as an offensive or defensive strategy.

Art. 2. Initiating Action. Action is to be maintained throughout the match by the wrestlers staying near the center of the mat and wrestling aggressively in all positions (top, bottom or neutral). Competitors charged with stalling shall be penalized according to the penalty sequence in Rule 5.7.3.

Art. 3. Penalty Sequence. a. First violation = warning. b. Second violation = 1 match point to the opponent. c. Third violation = 1 match point to the opponent. d. Fourth violation = 2 match points to the opponent. e. Fifth violation = disqualification.

Art. 4. Double Stalling. A “double stalling” violation is given when both wrestlers fail to initiate an offense.

Art. 5. Neutral Position Stalling. When competing in the neutral position, neither wrestler may force an unnecessary restart by forcing an out-of-bounds call by the referee. Each wrestler shall attempt to work toward the center of the mat and continue wrestling in an attempt to secure a takedown, regardless of the time or score of the match. When wrestling is stopped in the neutral position for going out of bounds, one of the following three calls shall be made (see Referee Signals in Appendix B for proper referee signals): a. Stalling by one or both wrestlers for leaving the wrestling area; b. Stalling for pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds; or c. Wrestling action is taking place.

Art. 6. Stalling by Backing Up. Continually backing away from the opponent without creating offensive action.

Art. 7. Stalling by Wrestling on the Edge. Near the edge of the wrestling area, a wrestler shall not leave the wrestling area unless it is to sprawl from an opponent’s takedown attempt or when interlocked in wrestling.

Art. 8. Stalling by Kicking Out of Bounds. A wrestler kicks out of a lower leg hold and this kick out requires the referee to make an out-of-bounds call.

Art. 9. Stalling by Fleeing. Fleeing or attempting to flee the wrestling area as a means of avoiding being scored upon.

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position. Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart.

RULE 5 / INFRACTIONS 57 Art. 11. Stalling — Offensive and Defensive Position. Offensive and defensive wrestlers shall make an attempt to sustain active wrestling and remain in the competition circle.

Art. 12. Stalling by Dropping Down to a Lower Leg. When the offensive wrestler is positioned with one or both hands below the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, releases the hold or when both wrestlers rise to the standing position. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler improves his position, moves his hold back up above the buttocks or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.

Art. 13. Stalling by Waist and Ankle Ride. If the offensive wrestler applies a hold with a hand or arm around the defensive wrestler’s torso while applying the other arm/hand below the buttocks, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. The referee shall stop the count when the offensive wrestler moves his arm/hand back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, or releases the hold. If the referee reaches the fifth count before the offensive wrestler moves his arm/hand back up above the buttocks of the defensive wrestler, or releases the hold, then the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.

Art. 14. Stalling by Side Headlock. When an offensive wrestler applies a side headlock or cross body headlock to the defensive wrestler, the referee shall immediately start a verbal five-second count. Whenever possible, the referee also should include a visual indication of the count. If the offensive wrestler does not release the hold or attempt to put his opponent in a near-fall situation (defined as on their back or in a near-fall criterion) before the referee reaches his fifth count, the offensive wrestler shall be called for stalling.

Art. 15. On-the-Mat Stalling Situations. Offensive and defensive stalling situations also include: a. The offensive wrestler does not aggressively attempt to break down the opponent. b. The defensive wrestler not initiating action to escape or reverse the opponent. c. An offensive wrestler not making an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat is considered stalling. In all rear-standing situations, it is the offensive wrestler's responsibility to make an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat.

Art. 16. Stalling by Delaying Match. Delaying the match, such as straggling back from out of bounds, unnecessarily changing or adjusting equipment, or any match delays directly related to shoes or shoelaces, shall be penalized as stalling.

 

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On 3/20/2022 at 11:12 AM, 4awrestler said:

I know I’ll probably get grilled for this and it by no means would have changed the outcome of the match but Nick Lee hardly left the hips of his opponent the entire finals match. In a high school match he would have been hit for stalling for never getting out to the side.


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Yeah, the worst part about situations like that is not only do they not hit the top guy, they often hit the bottom guy, so basically incentivize what they're doing...

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I have watched over the last decade. A distinct shift in how refs call parallel riding. It used to be if you did not have a leg in.. you’d better better getting your hips off to the side. Or you’d get dinged. 

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Ok - thanks @1032004 … this language say nothing about attempting to turn your opponent.  I was wrong to think refs should have been looking for that.

Well, we get what they measure.  Not a fan of riding for the sake of riding.  

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1 hour ago, nom said:

Ok - thanks @1032004 … this language say nothing about attempting to turn your opponent.  I was wrong to think refs should have been looking for that.

Well, we get what they measure.  Not a fan of riding for the sake of riding.  

I do think they should add something about working for a turn, but I think most would agree that doing the following for an extended period of time is not “sustaining active wrestling:”

-Sitting on an ankle

-Double boots

-Double thigh pry

-Claw/spiral

-Riding parallel

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On 3/20/2022 at 10:34 AM, Jim L said:

Still goes back to what do you expect the top guys to do? If he is focused on winning he is going to ride. Does anyone think Amine was going to be turned by Brooks if he stopped riding parallel and went for the fall. This is folkstlyle at the highest level. It is too hard to turn guys. Not everyone is Spencer Lee. 

The flip side of this, is that Amine couldn't get out from bottom. 

Storacci, and Lewis both escaped in 15 seconds, so did Warner and Dean. 

If Amine wanted to win he should have been better on bottom. 

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11 minutes ago, Joe1288 said:

The flip side of this, is that Amine couldn't get out from bottom. 

Storacci, and Lewis both escaped in 15 seconds, so did Warner and Dean. 

If Amine wanted to win he should have been better on bottom. 

Hmm.  I thought this was Jimmy’s alternate account, but maybe its Tbar

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26 minutes ago, Joe1288 said:

The flip side of this, is that Amine couldn't get out from bottom. 

Storacci, and Lewis both escaped in 15 seconds, so did Warner and Dean. 

If Amine wanted to win he should have been better on bottom. 

Yes and if we want a major factor in determining champions, how well a wrestler can hold a guy down, we have achieved that.

Just don't pretend it makes sense for the top guy to try to turn, when the best strategy is just to ride. 

Whether he is stalling or not, becomes a matter of semantics (he is trying to score, but not trying to turn)

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4 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Yes and if we want a major factor in determining champions, how well a wrestler can hold a guy down, we have achieved that.

Just don't pretend it makes sense for the top guy to try to turn, when the best strategy is just to ride. 

Whether he is stalling or not, becomes a matter of semantics (he is trying to score, but not trying to turn)

5-3. Amine didn't get out, but takedowns were 1 a piece and Brooks reversed him. Anything I missed?

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

I do think they should add something about working for a turn, but I think most would agree that doing the following for an extended period of time is not “sustaining active wrestling:”

-Sitting on an ankle

-Double boots

-Double thigh pry

-Claw/spiral

-Riding parallel

I suppose one needs to define active wrestling. If the wrestler is actively trying to ‘stay in control’ or ‘keep his opponent from escaping or gaining a reversal’ I could suggest that this is active wrestling. This is much different from actively trying to work for a pin or earn nearfall.

I think the rules need to be clearer or change if the objective is to not simply stay in control.

 

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