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Ask The Pro Trainer: How Do I Cut Without Losing Muscle?

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Bodybuilders are some of the leanest and yet have the MOST muscle of any athlete.

 

Ya, sure.......because they have more steroids coursing through their veins than blood. And to call a bodybuilder an "athlete" is a stretch. There's a big difference between athlete and circus performer

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I have a handful of friends that are body builders from Iowa City. One of them won the 2012 over 70 competition held in Davenport, Iowa. At 72 years of age he is immensely strong and has a fantastic definition. He's never taken an illegal enhancement to gain an unfair advantage in his entire time in competition. His trainer, who was a former competitive body builder preaches nutrition, hard work, consistency, a focused mind and healthy habits. Both of them LOOK like they're on HDH or steroids but neither of them are. They just train that hard and that smart. I have another friend about 30 minutes outside of Des Moines that is chiseled like a piece of granite. He only weights 215 pounds and he Bench presses 450 lbs. Never taken an illegal enhancement in his life.

 

It should also be noted that steroids were legal up until 1991, so to rag on bodybuilders who took them in the 60's, 70's and 80's is misplaced, and furthermore uncalled for. It wasn't until the Carl Lewis/Michael Johnson incident at the Olympics in 1988, that steroids became demonized. Anti-roid propaganda began to spread like wild fire, publicizing anyone and everyone that would paint a very ill picture of steroids. The abuses of steroids, and the traumatizing effects of the abuse we focused on heavily. Anyone that proposed an opposing side showing how steroids could be taken responsibly by grown adult males, was flat out ignored or quickly silenced. It's amazing how just the opposite has been done in regards to alcohol.

 

 

Plenty of roid raged abusers out there in the bodybuilding world, don't get me wrong. Just wanted to point out that there are a lot that aren't too.

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I It should also be noted that steroids were legal up until 1991, so to rag on bodybuilders who took them in the 60's, 70's and 80's is misplaced, and furthermore uncalled for.

 

Not sure who you're referring to when you say "to rag on", but I never mentioned anyone from the 60's, 70's or 80's. I'm talking about professional body builders today, in 2013, all of whom are products of modern chemistry....

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"Anti-roid propaganda began to spread like wild fire, publicizing anyone and everyone that would paint a very ill picture of steroids. The abuses of steroids, and the traumatizing effects of the abuse we focused on heavily. Anyone that proposed an opposing side showing how steroids could be taken responsibly by grown adult males, was flat out ignored or quickly silenced. "

 

What exactly would be a "responsible" way in which adults could take anabolic steroids for the purposes of performance enhancement?

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Fudgetunnel - my comments were not directly directed towards you. They were made in general to anyone that might perhaps take shots at the Ferrigno's or Schwartzenegger's.

 

Sheerstress - some illustrate the opposing argument better than I do.

 

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfKpIq_En0

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKZOv9dHKvg

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Sheerstress - some illustrate the opposing argument better than I do.

 

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfKpIq_En0

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKZOv9dHKvg

 

Johnny:

 

Those clips you provided:

 

1. Address the use of performance enhancing drugs in grown men, excluding women and children and adolescent athletes. (they openly admit at the end that using them in the latter groups causes serious problems)

 

2. Do not deny that there are serious, ongoing health risks involved with using these substances. The speakers for your position primarily downplay that there are any imminently life threatening dangers to using steroids as opposed to long term risks.

 

...and going back to my question:

 

3. Assuming steroid use would be beneficial and ethical in adult male athletes, specifically how would their administration be regimented (dosing, cycling) to minimize the long term health problems associated with their usage? That is, how exactly will the line be drawn between legitimate use and abuse?

 

The most common medical reasons these medications are used are for people with hormonal deficiencies or muscle wasting due to disease (e.g. cancer, AIDS). The bodybuilders in the clip openly say that the best reasons for using steroids are that they improve their performance and they make them "feel great."

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Sheerstress - some illustrate the opposing argument better than I do.

 

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqfKpIq_En0

part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKZOv9dHKvg

 

Johnny:

 

Those clips you provided:

 

1. Address the use of performance enhancing drugs in grown men, excluding women and children and adolescent athletes. (they openly admit at the end that using them in the latter groups causes serious problems)

 

2. Do not deny that there are serious, ongoing health risks involved with using these substances. The speakers for your position primarily downplay that there are any imminently life threatening dangers to using steroids as opposed to long term risks.

 

...and going back to my question:

 

3. Assuming steroid use would be beneficial and ethical in adult male athletes, specifically how would their administration be regimented (dosing, cycling) to minimize the long term health problems associated with their usage? That is, how exactly will the line be drawn between legitimate use and abuse?

 

The most common medical reasons these medications are used are for people with hormonal deficiencies or muscle wasting due to disease (e.g. cancer, AIDS). The bodybuilders in the clip openly say that the best reasons for using steroids are that they improve their performance and they make them "feel great."

 

1. Agreed. I said "grown adult males" in my original response to begin with.

 

2. I am not denying anything, but I am saying that there is a lot of hypocrisy and over hype on the negatives of steroids. Alcohol usage in itself and especially the abuse of alcohol also has serious, ongoing health risk involved, but for some reason has a blind eye turned to it. I don't own a position one way or the other on steroids. I simply point out that there is opposition to the classic norm, and I don't buy into the classic propaganda against steroids just because I'm told to. I just think it's absolute b.s. that marijuana and steroids are demonized by our society, when in so many ways they are no worse or even not as worse as alcohol, which always gets a free pass. I do drink sparingly, I haven't and won't even if it becomes legal ever smoke weed and I never have and never will take steroids. Had I been a grown adult male prior to 1991, when they were legal, I might have. I simply point this out because the hypocrisy of the situation.

 

3. I think that if steroids were legal, that they should still be strictly prohibited in professional and amateur sports. I think that if ever again legalized that they should have an age limit, as does alcohol and smoking cigarettes. 21 in my opinion would be a good age. As far as administration to regulate, there are healthier and safer ways to take these drugs, despite the negative concatenation that there isn't. The reason you don't hear much about proper cycling is because they are illegal, and it is a very taboo and underground market. People would be subjected to this information, perhaps even required to take a mandatory training class and even required to get a license before being allowed to legally purchase steroids. The difference between legitimate use and abuse is the responsibility of the user, no different than is the legitimate(if you can ever call it that) and abuse of the use of alcohol.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at in your last paragraph. Of course they use them to enhance their performance, their look and to "feel great". That is the purpose that they serve. That's what they were designed to do.

 

Steroids were criminalized in 1991, and we're lead to believe that the reasoning was due solely to the negative effects that they can have on the body. We had Lyle Alzado shoved in our face and were told his brain cancer was directly caused by his usage of steroids, although the coroner's report stated otherwise. We had serious abusers like Greg Valentino shoved in our face, as a message of what simple steroid usage can do to a person, when in fact Valentino's condition was a result of using used/dirty needles and serious abuse. We don't have a binge drinker shoved in our face and told that "this is what happens when you have one glass of beer", yet that'd be the equivalent of the Valentino situation. Lastly professional wrestlers who have died prematurely are reminiscent in our minds, and steroids often take the full blame for their deaths. The excessive amounts of alcohol they drank, the pain killers and other drug usage, somehow or another never comes into the equation. That's what pisses me off. One can state that in partial, steroids were criminalized in 1991 due to the negative effects that they caused on the body, but there was also quite the agenda that took place as well, that is not only ignored, but often flat out denied.

 

I don't advocate their usage and I also don't oppose their usage either. I really don't have an opinion on that part of the issue. Yet, I do have an opinion on the criminalization of steroids, and I don't agree with it. I most certainly do not agree with our society's demonetization of steroids either.

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3. I think that if steroids were legal, that they should still be strictly prohibited in professional and amateur sports.

 

Agreed.

 

......I think that if ever again legalized that they should have an age limit, as does alcohol and smoking cigarettes. 21 in my opinion would be a good age. As far as administration to regulate, there are healthier and safer ways to take these drugs, despite the negative concatenation that there isn't. The reason you don't hear much about proper cycling is because they are illegal, and it is a very taboo and underground market. People would be subjected to this information, perhaps even required to take a mandatory training class and even required to get a license before being allowed to legally purchase steroids. The difference between legitimate use and abuse is the responsibility of the user, no different than is the legitimate(if you can ever call it that) and abuse of the use of alcohol.

 

So if we're not using these substances for legitimate medical purposes, or for performance enhancement, why exactly would guys be taking them? Just so they could put on twenty pounds of muscle, and feel good every time they look in the mirror or go to the beach?

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at in your last paragraph. Of course they use them to enhance their performance, their look and to "feel great". That is the purpose that they serve. That's what they were designed to do.

 

Again, what I'm getting at is wondering aloud WHY these guys should be on steroids. You say that people should not be allowed to use steroids for performance enhancement. However, the men in the video clip were bodybuilders, and WERE using them for performance enhancement, and you admit that above. The only other reason put forth was, as the one guy put it, to make him "feel great."

 

And even if steroids are to be allowed for that purpose, back to my first point, HOW exactly would one determine a "responsible" way of administering them? Especially when most dosing regimens are based on anecdotal experience, and there is no long-term information on their safety?

 

2. I am not denying anything, but I am saying that there is a lot of hypocrisy and over hype on the negatives of steroids. Alcohol usage in itself and especially the abuse of alcohol also has serious, ongoing health risk involved, but for some reason has a blind eye turned to it. I don't own a position one way or the other on steroids. I simply point out that there is opposition to the classic norm, and I don't buy into the classic propaganda against steroids just because I'm told to. I just think it's absolute b.s. that marijuana and steroids are demonized by our society, when in so many ways they are no worse or even not as worse as alcohol, which always gets a free pass. I do drink sparingly, I haven't and won't even if it becomes legal ever smoke weed and I never have and never will take steroids. Had I been a grown adult male prior to 1991, when they were legal, I might have. I simply point this out because the hypocrisy of the situation.

 

The reasons for a given substance being controlled vary significantly. I don't think society has turned a blind eye to alcohol abuse, but prohibition was unenforceable, and the most people can do nowadays is to enforce existing laws governing their use and abuse. Marijuana, while illegal in most parts of the country, does have areas allowing for the use (and some would say abuse) of treating legitimate medical problems. And tobacco, probably the least restricted substance, has plenty of laws governing where you can and cannot smoke it.

 

I suppose from a libertarian standpoint, you could argue why ANY substance should be controlled, but I don't think either of us agree with that.

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Agreed. - Sweet we agree on that.

 

 

So if we're not using these substances for legitimate medical purposes, or for performance enhancement, why exactly would guys be taking them? Just so they could put on twenty pounds of muscle, and feel good every time they look in the mirror or go to the beach? -

 

The reasoning behind why someone would want to use steroids should not have to be justified anymore than someone's reasoning behind why they want to smoke a cigarette. Unlike smoking, steroids can actually benefit one's life. You can argue that smoking helps to relieve stress or even go way off the fence and say that it helps one to fit in to certain sects of society, but in all sense of reality smoking is an all con, no pro activity. Do you consistently question why one would want to smoke a cigarette? Have a drink? Chew tobacco? Why do you feel the need that one answer you with a reason you must feel is legitimate for why they would want to take steroids? There could be a number of different reasons a person could want to take steroids, and frankly as far as I'm concerned, as long as it isn't to give them an unfair advantage in a competition, then it's really not of your or my concern.

 

 

Again, what I'm getting at is wondering aloud WHY these guys should be on steroids. You say that people should not be allowed to use steroids for performance enhancement. However, the men in the video clip were bodybuilders, and WERE using them for performance enhancement, and you admit that above. The only other reason put forth was, as the one guy put it, to make him "feel great."

 

First off, let's make sure that our understanding of "performance enhancement" is the same. My definition of it is to help an individual by giving him an unfair advantage in an officially recognized contest or competition. I am not talking about the guy that wants to look better for himself and for others, nor am I talking about the guy that wants to make gains on his lifts for personal satisfaction. I'm talking about guys who are competing in official amateur and professional events. Lastly why do you even wonder? Why do you think it is your right to wonder what another person is doing, that is not harming anyone else? I suppose it's fine for you to wonder, but to think that your acquisition holds substance for whether they should or shouldn't be legal holds no ground.

 

And even if steroids are to be allowed for that purpose, back to my first point, HOW exactly would one determine a "responsible" way of administering them? Especially when most dosing regimens are based on anecdotal experience, and there is no long-term information on their safety?

 

I answered this question previously. People have been using steroids responsibly for over 50 years. There are ways to use them responsible. If legalized ever again, this information would be readily available to the public, because those who know how to use them properly would now be able to educate. As of now you don't think there is a responsible way to take steroids because you haven't seen/heard/read much that indicates that there even is. The reason, is because individuals don't want to indict themselves, by admitting that they use steroids, because steroids are illegal. How is the administration of alcohol any different? We have legal amounts of blood alcohol content level for example that one is allowed to have before operating a vehicle. Let me rest assure you as a citizen of Iowa City for four years, there are plenty of people out there in our society that do not follow that law. You're worried about people breaking the law? You're worried because some people won't use steroids responsibly? Well two for one sale pal, plenty of folks who don't use alcohol responsibly.

 

There are no long term studies because they weren't done pre 1991 and they aren't allowed to be done post 1991. A professor at the University of Wisconsin wanted to conduct a study, but was prohibited from doing so. I say because he would have proved that steroids could be taken in responsible way.

 

 

 

The reasons for a given substance being controlled vary significantly. I don't think society has turned a blind eye to alcohol abuse, but prohibition was unenforceable, and the most people can do nowadays is to enforce existing laws governing their use and abuse. Marijuana, while illegal in most parts of the country, does have areas allowing for the use (and some would say abuse) of treating legitimate medical problems. And tobacco, probably the least restricted substance, has plenty of laws governing where you can and cannot smoke it.

 

I disagree whole heartedly on society turning a blind eye to alcohol abuse. Alcohol abuse has caused far more negatives than marijuana and steroids combined, yet it is legal and they are not. It is the most hypocritical item one can address on so many levels. Regardless of any argument that one will make on the negative effects of steroids or marijuana, equal and further more worse examples of negative effects of alcohol can combat it.

 

I suppose from a libertarian standpoint, you could argue why ANY substance should be controlled, but I don't think either of us agree with that.

 

The drugs that makes people do really negative things to other people on the drugs merit, I believe should always be illegal. I don't mean that John shot Tom on a bad drug deal. That is Tom's fault and Tom's doing, not the drugs. I'm talking about the drugs people take that directly effect them mentally into doing something negative like kill another person. Those drugs that have a chemical effect on you to possibly cause you to harm others, should remain illegal. All other drugs I feel should be legalized.

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His grandsons took them in high school and college. Despite what he might have said about that, it happened. One of them played linebacker here and everyone who was around the team then knew he was on them. His younger grandson who played at Oklahoma got caught by the NFL and suspended because of his use. It just tells me the NCAA has a pretty lax drug policy. Personally I just think it's stupid to use that stuff.

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His grandsons took them in high school and college. Despite what he might have said about that, it happened. One of them played linebacker here and everyone who was around the team then knew he was on them. His younger grandson who played at Oklahoma got caught by the NFL and suspended because of his use. It just tells me the NCAA has a pretty lax drug policy. Personally I just think it's stupid to use that stuff.

 

I personally feel that it's exceptionally stupid to smoke cigarettes. Their are absolutely no benefits to smoking whatsoever. However, my opinion on the subject should have no substance in whether another person should be allowed to smoke or not. I hate cigarettes, I hate cigarette smoke, I hate how much money is spent on healthcare that would have easily been prevented and avoided had people never smoked and I hate all of the pollution that cigarette smoke has caused.

 

Yet, guess what. I support smoker's rights. Certainly won't allow them to smoke in my home or in my vehicle, but in their home, in their vehicle, in private establishments where the owner/operator deems it ok? I support it fully. Out in public? I support it too.

 

Just cause I personally don't agree with smoking, doesn't mean that I have a right to infringe on someone else's freedom to smoke.

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"First off, let's make sure that our understanding of "performance enhancement" is the same. My definition of it is to help an individual by giving him an unfair advantage in an officially recognized contest or competition. I am not talking about the guy that wants to look better for himself and for others, nor am I talking about the guy that wants to make gains on his lifts for personal satisfaction. I'm talking about guys who are competing in official amateur and professional events."

 

OK, so to clarify, the people you feel should be allowed to take anabolic steroids are 1.) Grown adult males who 2.) Want to "look better for himself and for others", or "make gains on his lifts for personal satisfaction." Or like I said, just so they could put on twenty pounds of muscle, and feel good every time they look in the mirror. Basically personal recreation usage.

 

" Unlike smoking, steroids can actually benefit one's life....I answered this question previously. People have been using steroids responsibly for over 50 years. There are ways to use them responsible."

 

OK describe these ways. Doses, cycling. And why these regimens are safer than for those who are abusing them.

 

For example, a beginning recreational cycle might consist of two weeks of testosterone supplemented by dianabol. Once you've tried this a few times, you could add in some more testosterone derivatives (e.g. Winstrol) and maybe some human growth hormone to round it off and do this for 16 weeks. These doses, by the way, would be at up to 15 times the doses for legitimate accepted usages. Beyond word of mouth and anecdotal information, where is there any evidence that a beginning cycle is any safer in the long run than a more advanced one? Or that any of these recreational cycles are safer than the ones used for legitimate medical purposes? None.

 

Among steroid users, there is a significant percentage (about 30%) of people who use them long term, and a small but discrete percentage (maybe 5%) of users who have serious problems with side effects and dependency. That's what concerns me.

 

And just because people have been doing something in a therapeutic manner for a long time doesn't mean that it's safe or effective. History is replete with instances of people using various therapeutics (e.g. mercury, tobacco (yes, it once was used for medicinal purposes), trephination, cough suppressants in children) for that were later found to be harmful.

 

If legalized ever again, this information would be readily available to the public, because those who know how to use them properly would now be able to educate. As of now you don't think there is a responsible way to take steroids because you haven't seen/heard/read much that indicates that there even is. The reason, is because individuals don't want to indict themselves, by admitting that they use steroids, because steroids are illegal."

 

Just discussing day-to-day usage of anabolic steroids for recreational purposes is not illegal, only actually using these drugs in this fashion is illegal. You can find all kinds of information one this kind usage out there. My concern, again, is that there is no good, well researched information on the long term effects of these substances. Anabolic steroid use for personal gain, as noted in the video clip, is legal in some countries, where they are readily available over the counter. Are there any studies that address the long-term usage of these substances from these areas, in which using these drugs is perfectly legal? I don't see it.

 

"I disagree whole heartedly on society turning a blind eye to alcohol abuse. Alcohol abuse has caused far more negatives than marijuana and steroids combined, yet it is legal and they are not. It is the most hypocritical item one can address on so many levels. Regardless of any argument that one will make on the negative effects of steroids or marijuana, equal and further more worse examples of negative effects of alcohol can combat it...We have legal amounts of blood alcohol content level for example that one is allowed to have before operating a vehicle. Let me rest assure you as a citizen of Iowa City for four years, there are plenty of people out there in our society that do not follow that law. "

 

Like I said, alcohol is legal largely because it's prohibition was UNENFORCEABLE, not because society doesn't recognize the harms of its abuse. I'm describing the nature of the problem, not justifying it or "turning a blind eye" to it. There are age laws that govern alcohol use (drinking ages, DUI laws, selling restrictions), but the reason alcohol abuse occurs is because people like to drink, some irresponsibly, and the legal system still hasn't found a way to effectively reduce the collateral from these abuses because restriction on alcohol consumption is very difficult, and in some cases, impossible to enforce.

 

 

The reasoning behind why someone would want to use steroids should not have to be justified anymore than someone's reasoning behind why they want to smoke a cigarette....Why do you feel the need that one answer you with a reason you must feel is legitimate for why they would want to take steroids? There could be a number of different reasons a person could want to take steroids, and frankly as far as I'm concerned, as long as it isn't to give them an unfair advantage in a competition, then it's really not of your or my concern...Lastly why do you even wonder? Why do you think it is your right to wonder what another person is doing, that is not harming anyone else? I suppose it's fine for you to wonder, but to think that your acquisition holds substance for whether they should or shouldn't be legal holds no ground....You're worried because some people won't use steroids responsibly? Well two for one sale pal, plenty of folks who don't use alcohol responsibly.

 

You answered your own question right there. Why does it mean that I shouldn't be concerned about steroids just because the use of alcohol is widespread and cannot be better controlled in society?

 

I work with alcohol abusers all the time, and yes, I wonder why they continue to drink when their liver is failing and they have lost virtually everything in their lives. I also wonder why the person with end-stage emphysema continues to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day despite the fact that they are on home oxygen and have to go to the hospital every other week. I wonder why unmarried couples on general assistance continue to not use some form of contraception when they can barely support themselves, let alone raise a child. And yes, I do wonder why steroid users do so when there are real side effects for which the long term data on their safety is uncertain at best, and there is no clear delineation between "safe" recreational use and abuse.

 

Is there much I can do to change these issues? In many cases, probably not; in this country you basically have the right smoke or drink yourself to death, or to gamble or squander your life away, and that's just the way it is. Is it fair that recreational use of tobacco or alcohol is legal but recreational steroid use is not? Maybe or maybe not, depending on your point of view, but that's not going to stop me from wondering why people feel the need to take them.

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Alcohol has chemical effects on people to kill other people ALL the time.

 

And not just in car accidents... domestic disputes, bar fights, etc, etc, etc.

 

Absolutely, and without question, alcohol is a very destructive substance when misused, which unfortunately occurs all the time.

 

However, alcohol in moderation (e.g. a glass of wine or a single 12 oz. beer daily) has been shown to actually have beneficial effects on the heart and vascular system. It's when you go beyond this that the trouble starts. All too often.

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OK, so to clarify, the people you feel should be allowed to take anabolic steroids are 1.) Grown adult males who 2.) Want to "look better for himself and for others", or "make gains on his lifts for personal satisfaction." Or like I said, just so they could put on twenty pounds of muscle, and feel good every time they look in the mirror. Basically personal recreation usage.

 

Based on what I know of the substances as of right now, yes that is my position. Furthermore my position is I don’t give a flying hoot why they want to use them. That is their own personal decision and their own personal reason. As long as they aren’t harming someone else, or using them to cheat in an officially recognized amateur or professional contest or competition, then I have no quarrel with it. Let me state this though. If amateur and professional athletic commissions were to state that they would permit the usage of steroids, I would in support of this decision. Frankly, it isn’t so much that I am against grown adult females taking these drugs, as much as it is that I don’t feel educated enough to have an opinion yet. Such as there are estrogen hormone pills (for example birth control pills) that women can take that men cannot take. I suppose they technically, “can’ take them, but I’m not sure why they’d want to. They’re known to make men extremely sick and cause them to even grow female parts in the northern hemisphere of the body. Most likely through further time, I’ll eventually support women who want to take steroids as well. Hell, I don’t oppose it now, I just don’t really care one way or the other. I will most likely always oppose children using them, for the most part I don’t agree with many societal restrictions, I do agree with that one.

 

 

OK describe these ways. Doses, cycling. And why these regimens are safer than for those who are abusing them.

 

I don’t have to, and more importantly I shouldn’t have to. I’ve never taken steroids before, and therefore I’ve never dosed or cycled before. I don’t have to know exactly how to drive a manual transmission car to know that manual transmission cars can be driven effectively and safely. I can just tell from observation. Did I know of steroid users during my six years in independent professional wrestling? Yes, I did. I know steroid users at the gym and I know steroid users in the world of semi-pro MMA. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out which guys are using the substances responsibly and which guys aren’t. You’re literally asking me in the lines of an analogy to, “Explain exactly why driving through a residential area where pets roam and child play at 25 mph, is safer than at 75 mph” It’s like anything else in life. If you’re an idiot about it, you’re most likely going to suffer the ramifications. If you’re intelligent about it, you’ll see the benefits.

 

 

For example, a beginning recreational cycle might consist of two weeks of testosterone supplemented by dianabol. Once you've tried this a few times, you could add in some more testosterone derivatives (e.g. Winstrol) and maybe some human growth hormone to round it off and do this for 16 weeks. These doses, by the way, would be at up to 15 times the doses for legitimate accepted usages. Beyond word of mouth and anecdotal information, where is there any evidence that a beginning cycle is any safer in the long run than a more advanced one? Or that any of these recreational cycles are safer than the ones used for legitimate medical purposes? None.

 

Then by golly George there ought to be! The professor at the University of Wisconsin, Norman Frost, should be allowed to conduct his study. Let’s make it so there is more than just word of mouth and anecdotal information. Where do I sign the petition? When do get to cast my vote?

 

Among steroid users, there is a significant percentage (about 30%) of people who use them long term, and a small but discrete percentage (maybe 5%) of users who have serious problems with side effects and dependency. That's what concerns me.

 

Then sir, you need to get on the band wagon to start demonizing alcohol on the same level. If the “serious side effects and dependency” of steroids is enough to make you stand to forever have them criminalized, then in all fairness should the “serious side effects and dependency” of alcohol make you stand the exact same way.

 

And just because people have been doing something in a therapeutic manner for a long time doesn't mean that it's safe or effective. History is replete with instances of people using various therapeutics (e.g. mercury, tobacco (yes, it once was used for medicinal purposes), trephination, cough suppressants in children) for that were later found to be harmful.

 

I agree that it doesn’t mean that it is safe. However, go back to my cigarette argument. How exactly or on what level exactly are they safe? There are many legal things/substances that people do on a day to day basis. You’re point is that they are harmful, valid. The point further reiterates that because of the harmful effects on the individual taking them, they should therefore remain illegal, invalid.

 

 

Just discussing day-to-day usage of anabolic steroids for recreational purposes is not illegal, only actually using these drugs in this fashion is illegal. You can find all kinds of information one this kind usage out there. My concern, again, is that there is no good, well researched information on the long term effects of these substances. Anabolic steroid use for personal gain, as noted in the video clip, is legal in some countries, where they are readily available over the counter. Are there any studies that address the long-term usage of these substances from these areas, in which using these drugs is perfectly legal? I don't see it.

 

How is someone going to be able to tell you about their experiences with taking steroids, especially if it is something that they still continue to do, without indicting themselves? You have a point when someone says, “I took steroids ____ years ago” but for those who are taking them now and continue to take them now, you know as well as I do they can’t speak their minds without the serious risk of ramifications. My answer is once again, that I concur with you that there isn’t, but that there should be. As Bob Clapp has stated, there hasn’t been yet, because the demonizing committee knows most likely that the final results would not be in their favor. Personally I agree with these other countries and their take on it.

 

 

Like I said, alcohol is legal largely because it's prohibition was UNENFORCEABLE, not because society doesn't recognize the harms of its abuse. I'm describing the nature of the problem, not justifying it or "turning a blind eye" to it. There are age laws that govern alcohol use (drinking ages, DUI laws, selling restrictions), but the reason alcohol abuse occurs is because people like to drink, some irresponsibly, and the legal system still hasn't found a way to effectively reduce the collateral from these abuses because restriction on alcohol consumption is very difficult, and in some cases, impossible to enforce.

 

Sir, let me make this clear and clarified. Had marijuana ever been legal for an extended period of time, and THEN tried to be criminalized, you would be stating the exact same claim. You feel like you are making such a great and irrefutable statement by using your big “unenforceable” word. You’re not. Marijuana consumption isn’t any different. Yet it is illegal and alcohol isn’t.

 

 

You answered your own question right there. Why does it mean that I shouldn't be concerned about steroids just because the use of alcohol is widespread and cannot be better controlled in society?

 

Your concern is fine. However not to the extent to where your concern should make a difference on whether steroids are legal or illegal for others to use. You may want to counter my argument by throwing it back in my face. Fine, and for record, good move. However, here’s the major difference. Your suggestion infringes upon the rights, liberties and freedoms of others to make choices concerning their own health. My suggestion is to grant more freedom, rights and liberties to the individual on what they can in regards to their own health.

 

I work with alcohol abusers all the time, and yes, I wonder why they continue to drink when their liver is failing and they have lost virtually everything in their lives. I also wonder why the person with end-stage emphysema continues to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day despite the fact that they are on home oxygen and have to go to the hospital every other week. I wonder why unmarried couples on general assistance continue to not use some form of contraception when they can barely support themselves, let alone raise a child. And yes, I do wonder why steroid users do so when there are real side effects for which the long term data on their safety is uncertain at best, and there is no clear delineation between "safe" recreational use and abuse.

 

Wonder. I don’t have a problem with that. I wonder too. Doesn’t give me a governing right to rule over the choices someone can make about their own health. Out of all the things you mentioned above, steroids in my opinion is the least severe in overall negativity. Yet they are illegal and the others are not.

 

Is there much I can do to change these issues? In many cases, probably not; in this country you basically have the right smoke or drink yourself to death, or to gamble or squander your life away, and that's just the way it is. Is it fair that recreational use of tobacco or alcohol is legal but recreational steroid use is not? Maybe or maybe not, depending on your point of view, but that's not going to stop me from wondering why people feel the need to take them.

 

Same answer as above. Your curiosity and right to question I don’t have a problem with. Any feelings that your opinion should have one way or the other, weight however, I do have a problem with because they shouldn’t. If John Doe can blacken his lungs, pollute the air, stink up the area around him as he walks himself into the grave, then the Bob Clapp’s of the world should be able to increase the size of their bicep as they walk themselves into the grave.

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