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Jimmy Cinnabon

New Penn State transfer

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35 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Will Betancourt, transfer from Ohio State.

PA guy, 115-10 HS record, 2020 PA state champ at 120 pounds.  Ranked 15th in country by Flo at 126 pounds.  Originally committed to Lock Haven.

Probably a depth guy, but you never know how he can develop in an elite room.

PSU really doesn't have a reputation of developing guys like this.  They get hammers and tweak them into the best but developing guys really isn't their strong point.

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1 minute ago, Twooooo said:

PSU really doesn't have a reputation of developing guys like this.  They get hammers and tweak them into the best but developing guys really isn't their strong point.

Ummm...say what??

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1 minute ago, Perry said:

It is a fair question (to an extent). Penn state is great at molding great talent into top tier talent. How is their track record on molding above average talent into great talent? Interesting topic to discuss, actually.

Agree - I was just wondering how many guys they have turned into high AA that  were not ranked in the top 5-8 coming out of HS. 

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Isn't it still developing talent?  If you get great talent and consistently turn them into top tier, isn't that considered development?  There are plenty of teams out there that get great talent like Penn St. but don't tern them into top tier.  I just think it is disingenuous to say they aren't known for developing talent because all the very top guys want to go there.  There is a reason, and if the top guys didn't feel like they were getting better by being there then pretty sure they would leave.

But I get it, Penn St. has reached the point where they are the top team (aka, the bulls in the 90's. or the Patriots in 2000's) and people are going to nit pick and grasp on the most minute things to find ways to criticize them.  Again, I am not really a "fan boy" of Penn St. but rather I am a fan of some of their wrestlers and have a respect for their program.  Cael is the man.  

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10 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

My take is Penn State is as good as any other team in molding average talent into great talent.  I can't think of another team that is markedly better.

Examples? Who started out average coming out of high school who ended up great? 

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3 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Examples? Who started out average coming out of high school who ended up great? 

Well, an easy one is Anthony Cassar. 1x champ in HS, relatively unheralded.  Rode the pine/injured for many season, and now he's the only guy to beat Gable Steveson ever in college.  And he did it twice.

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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tough argument to have because penn state gets so many five stars that even if some bench depth guy really develops at PSU you're only going to be able to base it on the east stroudsburg open because the 4x state champ in his weight class is handling the Big 10 duals.

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Just now, DocBZ said:

You guys are really stretching it with this one...guy couldn't even beat out Dylan Koontz at Ohio State who went 4-12 this year. I see zero chance he ever starts at PSU.

Stretching?  Did anyone in this thread predict he wins NCAAs or even starts?  I said he's probably depth.

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5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Well, an easy one is Anthony Cassar.

That is a good example…interesting that Nick Nevills was #1 coming out the same year and Seth was #1 as well. Interesting that it did t work out. 

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It's his third school in three years.  I don't know what he thinks he's going to find at PSU, but more power to him. 

Will be interesting when he gets there and finds out (or doesn't) that the "secret" is a lot of hard work, and that transferring, in and of itself, does not make you a better wrestler.  

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2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

That is a good example…interesting that Nick Nevills was #1 coming out the same year and Seth was #1 as well. Interesting that it did t work out. 

My feeling (anecdotal) is that #1 recruits at the ends of the spectrum (125 and HWT) have a higher bust rate in college.  For 125 pounders they may be too small and never develop into a full-strength 125 pounder (Malik Heinselman, the Decatur bros, maybe even Kurt McHenry are potential examples) and for HWTs some dancing bear types just don't have the neutral offense to dominate in college.

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Just now, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

It's his third school in three years.  I don't know what he thinks he's going to find at PSU, but more power to him. 

Will be interesting when he gets there and finds out (or doesn't) that the "secret" is a lot of hard work, and that transferring, in and of itself, does not make you a better wrestler.  

Did he actually compete for a school other than Ohio State though?

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15 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Examples? Who started out average coming out of high school who ended up great? 

Who started out average and ended up great at any school? What is your frame of reference for average and great?

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Jordan Conaway and James English, from what I recall, had outsized success relative to what their recruiting rankings were. 

I agree that Penn state is the best at taking monsters out of high school and carrying over that advantage to the next level. They arguably have less success with more middle of the road recruits, but they have so much more top end talent than the other teams that I think it's hard to judge how well do they actually develop the non blue chippers. 

It feels like teams such as NC state and Mizzouri tend to get more out of less harelded recruits than the top teams, but by no means is PSU far behind in this department. It might just be a numbers game: those teams tend to have more less highly heralded recruits on their rosters, so more opportunity to flaunt "development" if a few of those becomes successful.

I think anyone trying to argue that Cael can't coach should be ignored. I do think there is merit to the argument that PSU might not be the best at developing lower tiered talent, but who really cares? They get the big dogs and still manage to coach most of them up to an elite level and it's those wrestlers that win championships.

Edited by Mr. Poopy butthole

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1 minute ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Did he actually compete for a school other than Ohio State though?

Don't think so.  There weren't really opportunities for redshirts to compete in the 20/21 season.  

I point out the three schools since it is (1) abnormal, and (2) usually a bad sign.  Maybe he figures it out at PSU and goes on to be an All-American.  Or maybe next year he transfers to American.  Who knows.  

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Just now, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Don't think so.  There weren't really opportunities for redshirts to compete in the 20/21 season.  

I point out the three schools since it is (1) abnormal, and (2) usually a bad sign.  Maybe he figures it out at PSU and goes on to be an All-American.  Or maybe next year he transfers to American.  Who knows.  

Yeah it's not a great sign.  But Greg Kerkvliet committed to 2 other schools before Penn State I think...and he had a great career in blue and white so far.

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4 minutes ago, Mr. Poopy butthole said:

Jordan Conaway and James English, from what I recall, had outsized success relative to what their recruiting rankings were. 

I agree that Penn state is the best at taking monsters out of high school and carrying over that advantage to the next level. They arguably have less success with more middle of the road recruits, but they have so much more top end talent than the other teams that I think it's hard to judge how well do they actually develop the non blue chippers. 

It feels like teams such as NC state and Mizzouri tend to get more out of less harelded recruits than the top teams, but by no means is PSU far behind in this department. It might just be a numbers game: those teams tend to have more less highly heralded recruits on their rosters, so more opportunity to flaunt "development" if a few of those becomes successful.

I think anyone trying to argue that Cael can't coach should be ignored. I do think there is merit to the argument that PSU might not be the best at developing lower tiered talent, but who really cares? They get the big dogs and still manage to coach most of them up to an elite level and it's those wrestlers that win championships.

Yeah this conversation ultimately always devolves into "Cael's just a great recruiter!  He doesn't have to coach them up because they were already so great!"

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2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Yeah this conversation ultimately always devolves into "Cael's just a great recruiter!  He doesn't have to coach them up because they were already so great!"

It's a dumb argument and just to be clear, that's not what I'm saying.

I think PSU squeezes more juice out of the thickest plums than any team - just look at all the multi-time champs. They might arguably squeeze less juice out of the medium to small sized plums relative to other teams but it doesn't matter if that's the case because they still walk away with the most juice

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